Discussion
'9 GT is the same engine as DB9.2 but with the electronic throttle restriction that limited base DB9 to 510BHP lifted.
The base engine in Vanquish / V12V is identical - they just play with throttle restriction mapping to accordingly set power, therefore no reason except from treading on another models toes that DB9 GT could not have max power same as all pre 5.2L models.
The base engine in Vanquish / V12V is identical - they just play with throttle restriction mapping to accordingly set power, therefore no reason except from treading on another models toes that DB9 GT could not have max power same as all pre 5.2L models.
BamfordMike said:
'9 GT is the same engine as DB9.2 but with the electronic throttle restriction that limited base DB9 to 510BHP lifted.
The base engine in Vanquish / V12V is identical - they just play with throttle restriction mapping to accordingly set power, therefore no reason except from treading on another models toes that DB9 GT could not have max power same as all pre 5.2L models.
Crikey, it that it?!!! I shouldn't be surprised but I am! 3 models' power output governed by a line of code!The base engine in Vanquish / V12V is identical - they just play with throttle restriction mapping to accordingly set power, therefore no reason except from treading on another models toes that DB9 GT could not have max power same as all pre 5.2L models.
HBradley said:
Crikey, it that it?!!! I shouldn't be surprised but I am! 3 models' power output governed by a line of code!
Yup, that's itFor the VH310 Vanquish spec engine (basically outgoing V12 but with variable cam timing and knock control) the line-up until 5.2L goes something like this, spun from one base engine and electronic code
In 2013 a DB9.2 was 510 BHP, Vanquish 565 BHP - only difference being a line of engine controller code (which can be corrupted).
The 2014 Rapide was 550 BHP and RapideS was 555BHP
V12VS is 571 PS, which is 565BHP - therefore same as Vanquish.
GT12 is 595 / Up 30 BHP from "titanium exhaust system downstream of the manifold" so that means high flow secondary cats and different rear box together with "cast magnesium inlet manifolds".
So go back to start, take an electronic throttle restriction DB9.2 at 510BHP, lift the restriction and fit optimised exhaust system is 595BHP
BamfordMike said:
Yup, that's it
For the VH310 Vanquish spec engine (basically outgoing V12 but with variable cam timing and knock control) the line-up until 5.2L goes something like this, spun from one base engine and electronic code
In 2013 a DB9.2 was 510 BHP, Vanquish 565 BHP - only difference being a line of engine controller code (which can be corrupted).
The 2014 Rapide was 550 BHP and RapideS was 555BHP
V12VS is 571 PS, which is 565BHP - therefore same as Vanquish.
GT12 is 595 / Up 30 BHP from "titanium exhaust system downstream of the manifold" so that means high flow secondary cats and different rear box together with "cast magnesium inlet manifolds".
So go back to start, take an electronic throttle restriction DB9.2 at 510BHP, lift the restriction and fit optimised exhaust system is 595BHP
That's really interesting. So how where can you take a V12V with 510bhp to with just a remap / code change?For the VH310 Vanquish spec engine (basically outgoing V12 but with variable cam timing and knock control) the line-up until 5.2L goes something like this, spun from one base engine and electronic code
In 2013 a DB9.2 was 510 BHP, Vanquish 565 BHP - only difference being a line of engine controller code (which can be corrupted).
The 2014 Rapide was 550 BHP and RapideS was 555BHP
V12VS is 571 PS, which is 565BHP - therefore same as Vanquish.
GT12 is 595 / Up 30 BHP from "titanium exhaust system downstream of the manifold" so that means high flow secondary cats and different rear box together with "cast magnesium inlet manifolds".
So go back to start, take an electronic throttle restriction DB9.2 at 510BHP, lift the restriction and fit optimised exhaust system is 595BHP
BamfordMike said:
GT12 is 595 / Up 30 BHP from "titanium exhaust system downstream of the manifold" so that means high flow secondary cats and different rear box together with "cast magnesium inlet manifolds".
So go back to start, take an electronic throttle restriction DB9.2 at 510BHP, lift the restriction and fit optimised exhaust system is 595BHP
FYI, the factory were adamant when I spoke to them that for GT12 (and the performance pack being offered on V12VS), the secondary cat replacement/rear box change accounts for very little of the 30bhp extra power which I assume means the different inlet manifolds account for the bulk of the increaseSo go back to start, take an electronic throttle restriction DB9.2 at 510BHP, lift the restriction and fit optimised exhaust system is 595BHP
jonby said:
FYI, the factory were adamant when I spoke to them that for GT12 (and the performance pack being offered on V12VS), the secondary cat replacement/rear box change accounts for very little of the 30bhp extra power which I assume means the different inlet manifolds account for the bulk of the increase
Nah, I would be adament the comment you state is plain wrong and the exhaust is more than 50% of the make upit's more like 15BHP cats / ECU, 5BHP silencer and 10BHP inlets. When you say factory, who? Engineers that actually know what's what or non technical staff??
There is no logic to undermine the exhaust system - or why else have the expense of it as part of the kit? If the main reason it's part of the kit is weight save, then just have silencer and not manifold back (cats) which in isolation won't contribute much to weight save.
Only logic I can think to underplay exhaust system would be to not attract vehicle certification agency because the homologation rides a stock system??
AstonExige said:
That's really interesting. So how where can you take a V12V with 510bhp to with just a remap / code change?
You can't really re map a stock V12 @ 510 BHP with its primary cats still present.The 510 BHP is the old spec motor which runs flat knacker to deliver its power output. It's only the de tuned motors that could have the code restriction lifted to deliver more power
BamfordMike said:
jonby said:
FYI, the factory were adamant when I spoke to them that for GT12 (and the performance pack being offered on V12VS), the secondary cat replacement/rear box change accounts for very little of the 30bhp extra power which I assume means the different inlet manifolds account for the bulk of the increase
Nah, I would be adament the comment you state is plain wrong and the exhaust is more than 50% of the make upit's more like 15BHP cats / ECU, 5BHP silencer and 10BHP inlets. When you say factory, who? Engineers that actually know what's what or non technical staff??
There is no logic to undermine the exhaust system - or why else have the expense of it as part of the kit? If the main reason it's part of the kit is weight save, then just have silencer and not manifold back (cats) which in isolation won't contribute much to weight save.
Only logic I can think to underplay exhaust system would be to not attract vehicle certification agency because the homologation rides a stock system??
I'm not saying they are wrong, but I simply have too little knowledge and zero expertise to have a strong opinion one way or the other on the accuracy of the statement or the motivations behind it if not accurate. I don't want to betray confidences, so all I'll say is this was a face to face whilst at Gaydon with someone on the product side not the financial side.
jonby said:
I really don't know Mike - I was very careful in way I phrased my post :-)
I'm not saying they are wrong, but I simply have too little knowledge and zero expertise to have a strong opinion one way or the other on the accuracy of the statement or the motivations behind it if not accurate. I don't want to betray confidences, so all I'll say is this was a face to face whilst at Gaydon with someone on the product side not the financial side.
Yours and my version of Carefully phrased differ somewhat. You told me it was for "FYI" and the factory source was "adamant" That's pretty authoritative language in my book from someone with no expertise even if you are just simply the conduit of info from a source.I'm not saying they are wrong, but I simply have too little knowledge and zero expertise to have a strong opinion one way or the other on the accuracy of the statement or the motivations behind it if not accurate. I don't want to betray confidences, so all I'll say is this was a face to face whilst at Gaydon with someone on the product side not the financial side.
Have you seen the underside of a GT12?? I guess (I'm not 100%) GT12 and the power upgrade kit for V12VS hasn't even got secondary cats?? Below is a picture of the underside of a GT8 - no secondary cat whatsoever compared Vantage S - So GT8 is a factory retailed car with basically decat pipes compared to a Vantage S which needs its secondary cat to be market compliant. I'm not suggesting GT8 or GT12 aren't market compliant, more a case that the engineers must have worked utter magic to maintain emissions passes where a current production Vantage S made along side GT8 needs the missing secondary cat - no wonder GT8 attracts comments in the press of fab sound!!
GT8 with no secondary cat is a slither more than 10BHP over stock Vantage S which has a secondary cat, so stands to reason if GT12 follows same hardware strategy the power delta will be pretty much the same, so I will stick to my breakdown, thanks all the same.
vinnie83 said:
What's the situation with the DBS engine Mike? Is there any restriction on this or is it pretty much at it's limit?
DBS engine at 510 BHP is same engine spec as 510 BHP V12V - both at the limit with no software code restriction, meaning any appreciable gain must come from hardware and then re optimised software. In the line up it's just DB9.2 at 510BHP which can benefit a major gain of circa 55BHP from simply software recoding
BamfordMike said:
DBS engine at 510 BHP is same engine spec as 510 BHP V12V - both at the limit with no software code restriction, meaning any appreciable gain must come from hardware and then re optimised software.
And what is the maximum BHP you can extract via that route on that engine?whoami said:
And what is the maximum BHP you can extract via that route on that engine?
The maximum from a 510 spec motor?? Not sure, you would have to search the net to find the source of absolute max, and be happy dyno figures quoted were accurate. I guess a realistic 580-600 is what you could find out there BamfordMike said:
whoami said:
And what is the maximum BHP you can extract via that route on that engine?
The maximum from a 510 spec motor?? Not sure, you would have to search the net to find the source of absolute max, and be happy dyno figures quoted were accurate. I guess a realistic 580-600 is what you could find out there BamfordMike said:
Yours and my version of Carefully phrased differ somewhat. You told me it was for "FYI" and the factory source was "adamant" That's pretty authoritative language in my book from someone with no expertise even if you are just simply the conduit of info from a source.
I think you misunderstand me Mike. I wasn't arguing with you one way or the other. I thought you would be interested in what the factory told me. I can be absolutely adamant that's what they firmly told me without having an opinion on whether the information is accurate or not. 
Re the discussion on what aspects of engine and exhaust give what benefit - I have the Vanquish S Product Guide in front of me and, interestingly, only the UK and EU markets get the full fat 595bhp/603PS version. US and RoW only get 580bhp/588PS due to the secondary cats being put back in. So 15bhp-ish of the increase is manifolds/back box/ECU and the remainder down the the secondary cat. deletes. This actually means that a 'cooking' Vanquish 2.2 decat''d gives the same as a US & RoW Vanquish S....and it'll make a better noise as well👍
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