Discussion
So I guess this is probably well-covered ground here but thought I'd post since this is the closest I've ever had to a brush with the law and see what the advice is...
I parked in a council (Aberdeen City for what it's worth) pay and display car park a few weeks back and returned to my car 15 minutes after the expiry of the parking I paid for to find a PCN on the windscreen.
I did a little digging online and found a copy of the council's guidelines for issuing of PCNs under the Freedom of Information Act requests and responses section on their website. Having read this I found three possible issues with the PCN.
First, the guidelines say the warden must not issue a PCN until the paid parking duration has been exceeded by at least ten minutes - the PCN was issued after only nine minutes from the expiry of my parking. Second, the warden is also supposed to allow ten minutes between "time first seen" and "time of issue" for the PCN, the gap between the times was only three mintes. Finally, the guidelines say the PCN must accurately record the colour of the vehicle under "Essential Information" but on my PCN it just says "n/a".
I realise my parking had expired and in black and white terms the penalty is correct but given that the city warden who issued the ticket has failed to follow the authority's own guidelines I feel somewhat inclined to fight this. I emailed the appropriate department to object to the PCN and the other day I received a response which essentially said "you were late therefore you got a ticket" and didn't really acknowledge my points.
I am still within the period I can pay at the reduced rate of £30 and if I want to appeal then I have to wait until 28 days from the date of the response before they send me the form I need to do so. What's the feeling on this one, am I likely to have my objection upheld or not?
I parked in a council (Aberdeen City for what it's worth) pay and display car park a few weeks back and returned to my car 15 minutes after the expiry of the parking I paid for to find a PCN on the windscreen.
I did a little digging online and found a copy of the council's guidelines for issuing of PCNs under the Freedom of Information Act requests and responses section on their website. Having read this I found three possible issues with the PCN.
First, the guidelines say the warden must not issue a PCN until the paid parking duration has been exceeded by at least ten minutes - the PCN was issued after only nine minutes from the expiry of my parking. Second, the warden is also supposed to allow ten minutes between "time first seen" and "time of issue" for the PCN, the gap between the times was only three mintes. Finally, the guidelines say the PCN must accurately record the colour of the vehicle under "Essential Information" but on my PCN it just says "n/a".
I realise my parking had expired and in black and white terms the penalty is correct but given that the city warden who issued the ticket has failed to follow the authority's own guidelines I feel somewhat inclined to fight this. I emailed the appropriate department to object to the PCN and the other day I received a response which essentially said "you were late therefore you got a ticket" and didn't really acknowledge my points.
I am still within the period I can pay at the reduced rate of £30 and if I want to appeal then I have to wait until 28 days from the date of the response before they send me the form I need to do so. What's the feeling on this one, am I likely to have my objection upheld or not?
I got one dropped for "the warden must not issue a PCN until the paid parking duration has been exceeded by at least ten minutes". Its either a rule or it isnt.
The rule is meant to decrease human stress over a triviality or say a queue in a shop delaying you a little. Its a nice kind thing to do for usually grabby jobsworths! Make sure you take then up on it!
The rule is meant to decrease human stress over a triviality or say a queue in a shop delaying you a little. Its a nice kind thing to do for usually grabby jobsworths! Make sure you take then up on it!
8bit said:
I parked in a council (Aberdeen City for what it's worth) pay and display car park a few weeks back and returned to my car 15 minutes after the expiry of the parking I paid for to find a PCN on the windscreen.
I did a little digging online and found a copy of the council's guidelines for issuing of PCNs under the Freedom of Information Act requests and responses section on their website. Having read this I found three possible issues with the PCN.
First, the guidelines say the warden must not issue a PCN until the paid parking duration has been exceeded by at least ten minutes - the PCN was issued after only nine minutes from the expiry of my parking. Second, the warden is also supposed to allow ten minutes between "time first seen" and "time of issue" for the PCN, the gap between the times was only three mintes. Finally, the guidelines say the PCN must accurately record the colour of the vehicle under "Essential Information" but on my PCN it just says "n/a".
I did a little digging online and found a copy of the council's guidelines for issuing of PCNs under the Freedom of Information Act requests and responses section on their website. Having read this I found three possible issues with the PCN.
First, the guidelines say the warden must not issue a PCN until the paid parking duration has been exceeded by at least ten minutes - the PCN was issued after only nine minutes from the expiry of my parking. Second, the warden is also supposed to allow ten minutes between "time first seen" and "time of issue" for the PCN, the gap between the times was only three mintes. Finally, the guidelines say the PCN must accurately record the colour of the vehicle under "Essential Information" but on my PCN it just says "n/a".
Are you referring to this? - http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/nmsruntime/saveasdi...If so, where did you get 10 minutes from? Parked after the expiry of paid for time is Code 05. The observation time is a minimum of 5 minutes.
I see you have also posted this in Regional PHers - Scotland. Why? Did you hope to get different/more favourable answers there?
HantsRat said:
Guidelines are just that. Guidelines.
It's a bit more than that. It is a formal Council policy document which is supposed to be used as a standard reference by its operatives.I am fairly confident that The Parking and Bus Lane Tribunal for Scotland would take a dim view of it not being adhered to.
Red Devil said:
I see you have also posted this in Regional PHers - Scotland. Why? Did you hope to get different/more favourable answers there?
What a strange argumentative question; bloody obvious why he asked in Scotland region as that is where it happened and is more likely to get a response as to what other people in Scotland and particularly Aberdeen might have experienced.I would have thought that observation time related to e.g. parking on double yellows, where you might be loading or have a reasonable excuse for a short stop. For Car Parks the 10 minute grace applies after your paid period, not both.
Edited by speedking31 on Thursday 15th December 14:55
On the basis of the first two guidelines you have stated, I would, on principle, fight it (there is a chain of thought that "it's only £30 and life's too short" though).
The colour of the car is a bit more of a moot point. An old Saab I had was on my V5 document as "Beige", but it was clearly not; it was dark grey...
The colour of the car is a bit more of a moot point. An old Saab I had was on my V5 document as "Beige", but it was clearly not; it was dark grey...
Red Devil said:
Are you referring to this? - http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/nmsruntime/saveasdi...If so, where did you get 10 minutes from? Parked after the expiry of paid for time is Code 05. The observation time is a minimum of 5 minutes.
Red Devil said:
I see you have also posted this in Regional PHers - Scotland. Why? Did you hope to get different/more favourable answers there?
No, I asked a slightly different question there and was hoping for some local knowledge since it seems that local authorities take slightly different approaches to the appeals procedures etc. I decided to ask the above question in here for more general view on the situation. Apologies for asking in here, if I have indeed offended you by doing so... 
Red Devil said:
HantsRat said:
Guidelines are just that. Guidelines.
It's a bit more than that. It is a formal Council policy document which is supposed to be used as a standard reference by its operatives.I am fairly confident that The Parking and Bus Lane Tribunal for Scotland would take a dim view of it not being adhered to.
DaveH23 said:
For the sake of £30 i'd pay it knowing I had exceeded my time and then fight it if you feel strongly about it.
I understand that once you pay the fine then you can't fight it after the fact, unless you know better?speedking31 said:
I would have thought that observation time related to e.g. parking on double yellows, where you might be loading or have a reasonable excuse for a short stop. For Car Parks the 10 minute grace applies after your paid period, not both.
as per Red Devil:
CODE: 05
Observation Period: Minimum of 5 minutes.
As above, the contravention code on my PCN wasn't 05, it's 82.as per Red Devil:
CODE: 05
Observation Period: Minimum of 5 minutes.
Edited by speedking31 on Thursday 15th December 13:51
funkyrobot said:
OP, do you have a link to the guidelines?
It's the same document linked to by Red Devil.As I said before, I think their interpretation will be that in a P&D Car Park there isn't an observation period per se. If they visit the car park 30 minutes after your ticket expired, they don't then have to wait another 10 minutes before issuing a PCN. They have shoehorned the data into an inappropriate format to match their database fields.
speedking31 said:
As I said before, I think their interpretation will be that in a P&D Car Park there isn't an observation period per se. If they visit the car park 30 minutes after your ticket expired, they don't then have to wait another 10 minutes before issuing a PCN. They have shoehorned the data into an inappropriate format to match their database fields.
Did you read the appropriate section in the link? It's worded pretty clearly IMHO.8bit said:
Did you read the appropriate section in the link? It's worded pretty clearly IMHO.
Sometimes you have you have to wonder about some people. For the lazy:PCN Doc said:
CODE: 82
Code Description:
Parked after the expiry time of the time paid for in a pay and display car park.
Description of Contravention:
The contravention occurs when a vehicle parked in a car park with a pay and display ticket on show, which has expired by more than 10 minutes.
Extra Information to be Recorded:
Expiry time of pay and display ticket.
Serial number of pay and display ticket.
Loading and Unloading Allowed:
Yes
Observation Period:
Minimum 10 minutes.
Code Description:
Parked after the expiry time of the time paid for in a pay and display car park.
Description of Contravention:
The contravention occurs when a vehicle parked in a car park with a pay and display ticket on show, which has expired by more than 10 minutes.
Extra Information to be Recorded:
Expiry time of pay and display ticket.
Serial number of pay and display ticket.
Loading and Unloading Allowed:
Yes
Observation Period:
Minimum 10 minutes.
8bit said:
DaveH23 said:
For the sake of £30 i'd pay it knowing I had exceeded my time and then fight it if you feel strongly about it.
I understand that once you pay the fine then you can't fight it after the fact, unless you know better?8bit said:
Red Devil said:
Are you referring to this? - http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/nmsruntime/saveasdi...If so, where did you get 10 minutes from? Parked after the expiry of paid for time is Code 05. The observation time is a minimum of 5 minutes.
Sorry: my mistake. 8bit said:
Red Devil said:
I see you have also posted this in Regional PHers - Scotland. Why? Did you hope to get different/more favourable answers there?
No, I asked a slightly different question there and was hoping for some local knowledge since it seems that local authorities take slightly different approaches to the appeals procedures etc. I decided to ask the above question in here for more general view on the situation. Apologies for asking in here, if I have indeed offended you by doing so... 
I can understand why you decided to ask in both sub-forums but not why you posed a different question.
Logic suggests you will get a different answer (which was exactly my point).
8bit said:
Red Devil said:
HantsRat said:
Guidelines are just that. Guidelines.
It's a bit more than that. It is a formal Council policy document which is supposed to be used as a standard reference by its operatives.I am fairly confident that The Parking and Bus Lane Tribunal for Scotland would take a dim view of it not being adhered to.
Aberdeen City Council said:
Description of Contravention:
The contravention occurs when a vehicle parked in a car park with a pay and display ticket on show, which has expired by more than 10 minutes.
If, as you say, the issue time of the PCN was only nine minutes after your paid for time expired, ergo the alleged contravention has not ccurred.The contravention occurs when a vehicle parked in a car park with a pay and display ticket on show, which has expired by more than 10 minutes.
Quite satisfying if you can use their own words to defeat them.
There is also the potential procedural error in the observation time of 3 minutes rather than 10, but the above non-contravention argument is stronger.
The Essential Information omission of the vehicle colour is another Council fail.
Bear in mind though that it is not one of the pieces of information which the relevant legislation requires to be present on a PCN.
It's another stick but not big enough to do much damage.
That said, it strikes me as odd that procedural error doesn't appear to be listed as grounds for appeal in Scotland (see below).
You may find this interesting - http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/nmsruntime/saveasdi...
It is out of date in one respect as VED discs were abolished in October of that year.*
However there are only 6 grounds for appeal listed on P32. The Scottish Tribunal page lists 8.
https://www.mygov.scot/parking-appeals/when-to-app...
* The document should have been updated to take account of this. If so, the additional grounds should be there too.
in E&W there are even more.
London - http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/grounds-appe...
Outside London - https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/grounds-...
At least though, an appeal in Aberdeen is less expensive than in London.
shakotan said:
Yipper said:
Fight it. Appeal. You have a roughly 50% chance of success. Stand up to the robbing b******s.
Issuing a penalty charge for parking in an area for longer than your paid duration is not being a robbing b******d.If parking fines were applied in a similar manner to other crimes, someone who thieved a ~£30k car would get a ~£1m fine.
The OP owes it to everyone to stand up to the robbing b******s and appeal (and re-appeal if necessary).
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