R129 500 or 300?
Discussion
Im starting to look for a low mileage pre facelift car which i'm assuming is the amber lights and some times two tone paint cars?
Im not particularly fussed about having the 500 and looking to buy on condition and low mileage or should i be looking for a 500? Im not really going to use the car very much.
http://www4.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
If this one has only 6 services is it missing a lot?
Im not particularly fussed about having the 500 and looking to buy on condition and low mileage or should i be looking for a 500? Im not really going to use the car very much.
http://www4.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
If this one has only 6 services is it missing a lot?
t, some OK, and the elusive nice car amongst them. I won't comment on that individual car as I don't know it, but as a rule I try not to buy cars from dealers who use block caps and multiple exclamation marks.
Buy on condition and focus on cars which have a big wodge of paperwork indicating lots of work done in the last five years. Ideally look underneath with the car up on a lift. Routine servicing as per the schedule is enough to keep these cars doing for 10 years but to drive properly after 25 years they all need a fair amount of work. So you want a car that's been properly gone through at someone else's expense unless youre prepared to get the work done yourself.
Make sure the interior trim is all present and in good condition, as broken / missing bits are seriously expensive and hard to get
Ensure that you see the roof raised and lowered. Roof malfunctions are non-trivial to solve.
Bodywork: give all the arches a good fingering as they are prone to bubbling up like anything else made of steel. Front wings often go, but are bolt-on replacement. Superficial rust is common from things like stone chips that have been left unattended but serious structural corrosion is rare in these cars unless they have been crashed and badly repaired.
Obviously ensure that every single electrical thing works (including the rear view mirror) and the air con is up to snuff.
Common mechanical issues include:
- Suspension. A lot of cars haven't yet had the suspension completely rebuilt and if not they will need dampers, top mount rubbers, anti-roll bar bushes, possibly ball joints. Broken springs are not unknown.
- Steering. The steering boxes can be adjusted up to a point to compensate for wear, but eventually need expensive replacement. Idler arms and steering dampers are cheap and most cars benefit from having them replaced.
- Perished rubber, plastic and cork components under the bonnet including hoses, seals and gaskets, the PAS belt, and brake flexi hoses
- Differential pinion and drive shaft seals
The six cylinder models are pretty relaxed by modern standards but are smooth and make a nice sound. The 500 still counts as pleasantly brisk.
Buy on condition and focus on cars which have a big wodge of paperwork indicating lots of work done in the last five years. Ideally look underneath with the car up on a lift. Routine servicing as per the schedule is enough to keep these cars doing for 10 years but to drive properly after 25 years they all need a fair amount of work. So you want a car that's been properly gone through at someone else's expense unless youre prepared to get the work done yourself.
Make sure the interior trim is all present and in good condition, as broken / missing bits are seriously expensive and hard to get
Ensure that you see the roof raised and lowered. Roof malfunctions are non-trivial to solve.
Bodywork: give all the arches a good fingering as they are prone to bubbling up like anything else made of steel. Front wings often go, but are bolt-on replacement. Superficial rust is common from things like stone chips that have been left unattended but serious structural corrosion is rare in these cars unless they have been crashed and badly repaired.
Obviously ensure that every single electrical thing works (including the rear view mirror) and the air con is up to snuff.
Common mechanical issues include:
- Suspension. A lot of cars haven't yet had the suspension completely rebuilt and if not they will need dampers, top mount rubbers, anti-roll bar bushes, possibly ball joints. Broken springs are not unknown.
- Steering. The steering boxes can be adjusted up to a point to compensate for wear, but eventually need expensive replacement. Idler arms and steering dampers are cheap and most cars benefit from having them replaced.
- Perished rubber, plastic and cork components under the bonnet including hoses, seals and gaskets, the PAS belt, and brake flexi hoses
- Differential pinion and drive shaft seals
The six cylinder models are pretty relaxed by modern standards but are smooth and make a nice sound. The 500 still counts as pleasantly brisk.
Edited by Lowtimer on Tuesday 20th December 19:16
I have a similar "problem"
I know I want a 500 but in a particular colour(s), ie not black grey or silver.
There's a 500 for sale at the minute but it sounds like its been around and had little actual use over the last few years.
Then there's a similar looking car but a 320 with what sounds like it's been really well cared for......
I know I want a 500 but in a particular colour(s), ie not black grey or silver.
There's a 500 for sale at the minute but it sounds like its been around and had little actual use over the last few years.
Then there's a similar looking car but a 320 with what sounds like it's been really well cared for......
Skyedriver said:
I have a similar "problem"
I know I want a 500 but in a particular colour(s), ie not black grey or silver.
There's a 500 for sale at the minute but it sounds like its been around and had little actual use over the last few years.
Then there's a similar looking car but a 320 with what sounds like it's been really well cared for......
I've a 320 it's fine, but if you really want a 500 buy one, just look for a goodun. I know I want a 500 but in a particular colour(s), ie not black grey or silver.
There's a 500 for sale at the minute but it sounds like its been around and had little actual use over the last few years.
Then there's a similar looking car but a 320 with what sounds like it's been really well cared for......
Mine (early 500, 4 speed transmission) does anything between 18 and 22 mpg over the course of a tankful, adn will do 24 mpg on a motorway run at a true 70-75 mph, which I don't consider bad at all for a 1980s-designed 5-litre V8 slushmatic pushing a car that weighs nearly two tons. Five speeders are probably 10%-15% more economical on high speed A roads and motorways, but of course they are no better when they're not using the very high fifth gear. The first four ratios are the same in both boxes and they are both geared for 160 in fourth, so motorway fuel economy is really the only advantage of the 5-speed transmission.
It's not restricted, at least my early one isn't. Autocar clocked it at 157 mph two-way, with a best run of 160. Which is about what you'd expect from a car of that configuration, drag coefficient, frontal area and design era with 326 bhp, much the same as a 928S4. At that speed it's pulling 5650 rpm which is 150 rpm over the power peak, so there's really no scope to make it much faster without changing the gearing *and* increasing the power.
Edited by Lowtimer on Wednesday 21st December 14:01
Interesting, I just reread the road test and you're right it hit 160mph. However they say this was limiter intervention and had more to give. They also ponder the acceleration which given the power to weight ratio seems quicker than expected. I wonder if the M119 delivers more than the 326bhp quoted?
It's said that AMG (independent-ish of MB at the time) understated the performance achieved by the M119 engine in 6.0 litre form, as found in the SL60 AMG. This was done so as not to undermine the SL600 as the flagship.
The SL60 AMG was the most numerous of these rare cars. Sold from 1993 to 1998, it used a six litre, V8 engine producing 381PS at 5500rpm. AMG claimed a 0 to 62mph speed of 5.6 seconds. Its top speed was limited to 155mph, but with the limiter removed, it was capable of approximately 185mph. AMG later unofficially conceded that 0 to 60mph was more like 5.0 seconds and the engine produced between 405-410bhp.
The SL60 AMG was the most numerous of these rare cars. Sold from 1993 to 1998, it used a six litre, V8 engine producing 381PS at 5500rpm. AMG claimed a 0 to 62mph speed of 5.6 seconds. Its top speed was limited to 155mph, but with the limiter removed, it was capable of approximately 185mph. AMG later unofficially conceded that 0 to 60mph was more like 5.0 seconds and the engine produced between 405-410bhp.
truck71 said:
Interesting, I just reread the road test and you're right it hit 160mph. However they say this was limiter intervention and had more to give. They also ponder the acceleration which given the power to weight ratio seems quicker than expected. I wonder if the M119 delivers more than the 326bhp quoted?
You're absolutely right, I just re-read the whole test and they do mention a speed limiter (confirmed also by the Car & Driver test) so that was a bit of false-memory syndrome on my part. However, given that the engine passes the power peak at about 153 mph (5,500 rpm in top), and with the power therefore reducing with every extra mile per hour, on the standard gearing I don't see there being much if anything left past 160. Regardless of the speed limiter, the standard 6000 rpm rev limiter would take effect at 169 mph anyway.
A lot of German cars of that era are effectively rev limited in top despite having what feel like leggy top gears. My 944 Turbo is like that. They will all run past the power peak which is only at 150 mph in top gear. Even if I took mine to Nardo it could never do more than 164 mph because that's the rev limit in top gear (it's mildly tweaked). My BMW E39 530i is geared to run slightly beyond the power peak in top gear at its 150 mph top speed, too. Although we think of German cars of this era as being autobahn top speed merchants. in reality they mainly seem to have been geared with the aim of providing the best acceleration in the run from 75 mph up to 150 mph rather than to achieve ultimate top speed. I imagine that was far more use than the last 10 or 15 mph in the context of the regular autobahn traffic in the 1990s.
The question of the SL60 is interesting. The top gear ratio was of course the same 1:1 direct top as the standard 4 speed 500, so I wonder if they were available with optional final drives? On the standard 2.65:1 back axle ratio shared by the 500SL and 600SL, 185 mph would be 6545 rpm, which is a long way past the red line and a VERY long way past the power peak.
Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 22 December 09:57
Lowtimer said:
You're absolutely right, I just re-read the whole test and they do mention a speed limiter (confirmed also by the Car & Driver test) so that was a bit of false-memory syndrome on my part.
However, given that the engine passes the power peak at about 153 mph (5,500 rpm in top), and with the power therefore reducing with every extra mile per hour, on the standard gearing I don't see there being much if anything left past 160. Regardless of the speed limiter, the standard 6000 rpm rev limiter would take effect at 169 mph anyway.
A lot of German cars of that era are effectively rev limited in top despite having what feel like leggy top gears. My 944 Turbo is like that. They will all run past the power peak which is only at 150 mph in top gear. Even if I took mine to Nardo it could never do more than 164 mph because that's the rev limit in top gear (it's mildly tweaked). My BMW E39 530i is geared to run slightly beyond the power peak in top gear at its 150 mph top speed, too. Although we think of German cars of this era as being autobahn top speed merchants. in reality they mainly seem to have been geared with the aim of providing the best acceleration in the run from 75 mph up to 150 mph rather than to achieve ultimate top speed. I imagine that was far more use than the last 10 or 15 mph in the context of the regular autobahn traffic in the 1990s.
The question of the SL60 is interesting. The top gear ratio was of course the same 1:1 direct top as the standard 4 speed 500, so I wonder if they were available with optional final drives? On the standard 2.65:1 back axle ratio shared by the 500SL and 600SL, 185 mph would be 6545 rpm, which is a long way past the red line and a VERY long way past the power peak.
I'm now mischievously intrigued as to what my 5 speed M119 would get up to if it was derestricted! If the engine would pull the higher gear past 160mph, who knows- maybe 170? The fact these cars are sophisticated cruisers and top speeds are almost crass I'd love to know just what would happen.However, given that the engine passes the power peak at about 153 mph (5,500 rpm in top), and with the power therefore reducing with every extra mile per hour, on the standard gearing I don't see there being much if anything left past 160. Regardless of the speed limiter, the standard 6000 rpm rev limiter would take effect at 169 mph anyway.
A lot of German cars of that era are effectively rev limited in top despite having what feel like leggy top gears. My 944 Turbo is like that. They will all run past the power peak which is only at 150 mph in top gear. Even if I took mine to Nardo it could never do more than 164 mph because that's the rev limit in top gear (it's mildly tweaked). My BMW E39 530i is geared to run slightly beyond the power peak in top gear at its 150 mph top speed, too. Although we think of German cars of this era as being autobahn top speed merchants. in reality they mainly seem to have been geared with the aim of providing the best acceleration in the run from 75 mph up to 150 mph rather than to achieve ultimate top speed. I imagine that was far more use than the last 10 or 15 mph in the context of the regular autobahn traffic in the 1990s.
The question of the SL60 is interesting. The top gear ratio was of course the same 1:1 direct top as the standard 4 speed 500, so I wonder if they were available with optional final drives? On the standard 2.65:1 back axle ratio shared by the 500SL and 600SL, 185 mph would be 6545 rpm, which is a long way past the red line and a VERY long way past the power peak.
Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 22 December 09:57
The five speed M119 engined car pulls 34.8 mph / 1000 rpm in top, and therefore at 160 mph would be pulling only 4600 rpm, so I think top gear on a five speeder is probably too high for that gear to give you a higher maximum speed. The published power curve gives the same power at 4600 rpm as at the 6000 rpm redline - 300 hp in both cases. So it will go no faster in fifth than in fourth, unless it points down a steep hill or gets a big tailwind.
Based on 928 numbers and the published curves for the SL60 engine I would not be surprised to see a five speed SL60 do 5000 rpm in top, which is 174 mph. It produces 380 hp at that speed, which feels about right for what it would take to get the car to 174 mph.
Based on 928 numbers and the published curves for the SL60 engine I would not be surprised to see a five speed SL60 do 5000 rpm in top, which is 174 mph. It produces 380 hp at that speed, which feels about right for what it would take to get the car to 174 mph.
Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 22 December 12:38
Since owning my sl60 (4seed)I can tell you it is incredible what a supposed 380bhp is next to my early 500sl with 326... therefore I too believe it was putting out over 400hp.
its only had a quick trip to 130 mph on a track with the roof down and it got there very quickly. So I have no doubt it can get to the speed limiter and beyond.
The 500 was restricted at launch as I recall. I'm sure they said without restricted it would be more like 168mph
If I had a clean 10,000 mile car then I would be testing it in Germany but I wouldn't trust mine at that speed
its only had a quick trip to 130 mph on a track with the roof down and it got there very quickly. So I have no doubt it can get to the speed limiter and beyond.
The 500 was restricted at launch as I recall. I'm sure they said without restricted it would be more like 168mph
If I had a clean 10,000 mile car then I would be testing it in Germany but I wouldn't trust mine at that speed
Might be worth checking out Hong Kong as a possible source of cheap R129s. The exchange rate is properly terrible for us right now at 9.5 HKD to the GBP (when I lived there April 2014 - June 2015 it was clocking 12-1 and even 13-1) but there are some *very* cheap low-mileage cars. Take this car - now sold - I doubt you'd find a one-owner 10,000 mile car in the UK at £5000 (plus shipping plus 10% import plus 17.5% VAT - so maybe 8500 all in?)
http://hkcartrader.com/en/item?q=2605
Obviously there's no salt on the roads and in order to own a car in HK you pretty much have to have a dedicated parking space, normally under cover or underground. Most cars are washed constantly by the houseboys and used as pure status symbols, with perhaps the odd blast out to Lantau, Sai Kung or the New Territories. Once a car like the R129 is way, way past its show-off heyday then there's very little market for them.
Obviously the downside to this is long periods of storage, frequent cold starts and short trips (coupled with some very steep roads on HK Island) along with the problem of getting the cars inspected. Plus HK spec doesn't included heated seats.
Unlike most Japanese delivered cars the standard HK spec seems to have included rear seats, and although the speedos are in KM/H the warning text by the gear selector is in English - so presumably the service books and manual is as well. HK is essentially bilingual. The number plates are the same size as contemporary UK standard.
http://hkcartrader.com/en/item?q=2605
Obviously there's no salt on the roads and in order to own a car in HK you pretty much have to have a dedicated parking space, normally under cover or underground. Most cars are washed constantly by the houseboys and used as pure status symbols, with perhaps the odd blast out to Lantau, Sai Kung or the New Territories. Once a car like the R129 is way, way past its show-off heyday then there's very little market for them.
Obviously the downside to this is long periods of storage, frequent cold starts and short trips (coupled with some very steep roads on HK Island) along with the problem of getting the cars inspected. Plus HK spec doesn't included heated seats.
Unlike most Japanese delivered cars the standard HK spec seems to have included rear seats, and although the speedos are in KM/H the warning text by the gear selector is in English - so presumably the service books and manual is as well. HK is essentially bilingual. The number plates are the same size as contemporary UK standard.
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