One for the Christians...
Discussion
Or anyone who has read the bible...
Can anyone tell me any bad things the Devil did in the Bible? Off the top of my head, I can't think of any really bad ones, just a little bit of temptation(although as an athiest, I'm not the best authority on the matter).
Just a bit of reasearch for an idea I'm having...
Can anyone tell me any bad things the Devil did in the Bible? Off the top of my head, I can't think of any really bad ones, just a little bit of temptation(although as an athiest, I'm not the best authority on the matter).
Just a bit of reasearch for an idea I'm having...
Devil: A fictional character invented and used by the Church to scare people into doing what they want - usually giving their life, money or both to the Church. Exploits and maintains mental weakness, fear and timidity, when what they really need is a psychologist.
I've seen it happen; it's scary how the 'medicine' of religion is actually the slow poison.
I've seen it happen; it's scary how the 'medicine' of religion is actually the slow poison.
Right, sitting comfortably...
In books of the Hebrew Scriptures written before 300 BCE, the term "satan" (root word "s'tn") appears often. The word is derived from the original Hebrew verb "satan" which means "to oppose." The Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek was widely used in the early Christian church. They translated "satan" as "diaboloc" from which we derive our English term "devil" and "diabolic."
The word is used to refer to:
Any person acting as an accuser or enemy. For example: 1 Samuel 29:4: The Philistines were distrustful of David, fearing that he would be a satan. (translated "adversary" or "someone who will turn against us").
2 Samuel 19:22: Shime-i apologizes to King David. The King rejects the apology, saying that they should not be a satan to each other (translated "adversary" or "opponent").
1 Kings 5:4: King Solomon is talking to Hiram, the King of Tyre. He says that now that there is neither satan nor bad luck to stop him, he can build the Temple. (translated as "adversary", "enemy", or "one who opposes").
1 Kings 11:14: God raised up Hadad the Edomite as a satan against Solomon. (translated as "adversary," or "opponent").
a divine messenger sent by God as an adversary: Numbers 22:22 & 32: God appears in a dream, telling Balaam to go with the princes of Moab to meet Balak. But when Balaam sets out the next morning on his donkey, God is angry with him for some reason, and sent an angel/messenger to kill him. The donkey saw the angel and took evasive actions. The angel was invisible to Balaam, who beat the animal. The donkey asked Balaam why he had beat her three times. Balaam, who doesn't seem to realize that a talking donkey is an unusual occurrence, replies. The angel then appears and explains that he has come as a satan to kill him. (translated as "one who opposes, "withstand," "adversary")
a member of God's inner council; a type of chief prosecutor of Heaven: 1 Chronicles 21:1: Satan, "a supernatural evil emissary," acting on God's behalf, has influenced David to hold a census. The census is taken, and God is angry for an unknown reason. Perhaps God does not want humans to be aware of the strength of the army. God then offers David his choice of one of three punishments: a 3 year famine, 3 months of fleeing before his enemies' armies, or a plague throughout Israel. David selects the plague and God killed 70,000 men (and presumably a similar number of women and many tens of thousands of children). In 2 Samuel 24, the identical event is described. However, this time, the text states that God influenced David to hold the census. Even though God had incited David to enumerate the men of Israel and Judah, he was still angry that it was done and punished the Israelites with a plague. The writings in 2 Samuel are believed to be the original account; 1 Chronicles came later. It is believed that when Samuel was finally edited (circa 560 BCE), the editors thought that all supernatural actions (good and bad) came from God. When Chronicles was written over a century later, (circa 400 BCE) the author viewed God as operating indirectly through his helpers.
Job 1 and 2: Satan is described as one of the members of the court of heaven. God mentions that he is impressed at the behavior of Job, a blameless man who has lived an upright life. Satan attributes Job's commendable behavior to his good fortune and says that Job would soon curse God if he had a string of really bad luck. God decides to conduct an experiment with Job; he instructs Satan to destroy all that Job has: kill his animals, murder his employees, and murder his innocent children. But, even after these disasters, Job still does not curse God. So God instructs Satan to up the ante by returning to earth and destroying Job's health. Here, Satan is portrayed as a servant of God whose task it is to dutifully carry out evil deeds at God's instruction.
Zechariah 3:1-7: Satan is again portrayed as a member of God's council. Here he objects to the selection of Joshua as the high priest.
There are no passages within the older parts of the Hebrew Scriptures where Satan is portrayed as an evil devil - the arch enemy of God and of humanity. At most, he is described as a henchman who carries out God's evil instructions. There is no dualism here between two powerful supernatural entities: an all-good God and an all-evil Satan. God is portrayed as performing, directly and indirectly, both kind and evil deeds. When:
plagues are to be sent, or
a great genocidal flood is created to kill off almost all of humanity, except for Noah and his family, or
Onan was killed because he practiced an elementary form of birth control, in violation of a cultural tradition, or
Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because its residents were abusive to the needy and to strangers, or
Lot's wife is turned into a pillar of salt because she looked the wrong way,
it is God who does it. In essence, the ancient writers of the early Hebrew Scriptures looked upon Jehovah as performing both good and evil deeds. A good indication of this is found in:
Isaiah 45:6-7:
"...I am the LORD and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace an create evil. I the LORD do all these things." (KJV)
or in Job 9:22-23:
"...[God] destroys both the blameless and the wicked. When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent." (i.e. laughs at the suffering of the victim)
or in Lamentations 3:37-38:
"Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?"
From the middle of the 5th century BCE until 53 BC and later, the Jews were on particularly good terms with the Persians. From the latter's religion, Zoroastrianism, the Jews picked up a number of concepts: the immortality of the soul, angels, and Satan. Of the 3 main divisions of Judaism (Essenes, Pharisees, Saducees) in the 1st century BCE, the Essenes seems to have focused the most on Satan.
Jesus and his disciples accepted the common belief of the 1st century CE that mental illness and some physical ailments were caused by indwelling demons. "Unclean spirits" are mentioned 7 times in Mark, once in Matthew, 3 times in Luke and once in Revelation. A "dumb spirit" and a "deaf spirit" are each mentioned once in Mark. Luke talks about a "spirit of infirmity" in his gospel, and, a "spirit of divination" & an "evil spirit" in Acts. The concept of "violent possession" appears for the first time in Scripture. Demons are believed to posses individuals and cause them to mutilate themselves, to collapse, to foam at the mouth, to thrash around on the ground. Demons are seen as the cause of many physical disabilities, including blindness, spinal deformities, inability to speak. Satan figures prominently throughout the Christian Scriptures: Jesus is tempted by Satan (Matthew 4:1-3, Luke 4:2). The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons in the name of "Beelzebub, the prince of the demons." (Matthew 12:24)
In the writings of Paul and the other apostles, the character and range of activities of Satan and his demons is further developed. God and Satan are seen as the two most powerful forces in the universe. The duality between an all-good God and all-evil Satan is firmly established. Examples are:
2 Corinthians 11:12-14: Satan is seen to be responsible for false teaching by "false apostles, deceitful workers."
2 Corinthians 12:7: Satan has given Paul a "thorn in the flesh" to trouble him.
1Thessalonians 2:17-18: Satan hindered Paul's travels
I Timothy 1:19-20: Hymenaeus and Alexander have fallen away from the faith and blasphemed. Paul had excommunicated them and "delivered them unto Satan." Here, he is expressing the belief found also in 1 Corinthians 5:5 that once a believer is excommunicated, he will be no longer protected by God. Satan will torment him and perhaps purify him.
The author of the Book of Revelation develops the concept of a great battle between Satan and God at the end of the world as we know it:
Revelation 2:8-9: Satan is portrayed as the power behind the Roman Empire's persecution of the Christians. The author apparently condemns ex-Christians who pretend that they are Jewish in order to avoid the persecution. They are referred to as the "Synagogue of Satan."
Revelation 12:9: Satan, viewed as the great dragon, and his fallen angels were cast down to earth.
Revelation 20:2-3: Satan is bound and sealed into an abyss for 1000 years, so that he could no longer deceive the nations.
Revelation 20:7-8: Satan is released after 1000 years, deceives the nations, and gathers them together for war. He loses.
Andy. (Wiccan.)
Hidden depths from Scruffy!Some passages in the Bible that are often associated with Satan (researched a while ago, hence bible refs, it was a copy of ):
the serpent who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4 & Genesis 3:14)
Satan (1 Chronicles 21:1)
the adversary playing the role of prosecuting attorney in a heavenly court with God and the angels (Job 1:6 & Zechariah 3:1-2 & 1 Peter 5:8)
as the devil (from the Greek "diabolos" which means "slanderer"), the temper of Jesus (Matthew 4:1-3, Luke 4:2)
the prince of the demons, Beelzebub (Matthew 12:24, Mark 3:22, Luke 11:15)
unclean spirit (Matthew 12:43)
the evil one (Matthew 13:19 & 1 John 2:13)
the author of all evil (Luke 10:19)
a murderer and the father of lies (John 8:44)
the prince of this world (John 12:31 & 14:30 & 16:11)
a demon able to enter into a human body (John 13:27)
god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)
Belial (2 Corinthians 6:15)
prince of the powers of the air, the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2)
power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
an adversary, like a roaring lion who walks about seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8)
the angel of the abyss, named Abaddon in Hebrew, Apollyon in Greek (Revelation 9:11)
a great red dragon (Revelation 12:3 & 12:9 & 20:2)
the accuser of our brethren who accuses Christians before God day and night (Revelation 12:10)
the dragon, the old serpent (Revelation 20:2)
In addition, there are three passages that are considered by some Christians as descriptions of Satan. They are often quoted in isolation as references to the devil:
2 Kings 1:2-4 contains a reference to Baal-zebub. This passage describes how King Ahaziah of Samaria had an accident. He fell through a latticed window in his roof-chamber and injured himself. He decided to send messengers to Ekron, a nearby Phoenician city to inquire of their god Baal-zebub whether he would recover from the accident. Baal was the principal god of the Phoenicians; his name might have meant "Master of the Heavenly House." The ancient Israelites followed Baal's name with "zebul" which means "dung;" this produced the insulting term "Baal-zebul" which was later corrupted to "Baal-zebub." "Baal-zebub" was simply a religiously intolerant, insulting term for "Baal," the main deity of a neighboring tribe. The name had no connection to Satan. (Conservative Christians would disagree with this assessment; to many of them, all gods and goddesses other than Jehovah are in fact demons.) By the time of Jesus' ministry, the related name "Beelzebul" had apparently become a nickname for Satan. It remains so today.
Isaiah 14:12-24 is interpreted by some as referring to Satan by the name "helel" in Hebrew. This is often translated as "Lucifer" or "Morning Star." The passage describes how he had fallen from heaven, was thrown to earth, expressed a desire to sit "on the mountains where the Gods assemble", wished to be like God, and had attacked many cities, leaving them in ruins. At first glance, this looks like a description of some of the activities of Satan. However, verse 4 clearly states that the passage refers to the King of Babylon, not to Satan. Isaiah was simply showing "sarcastic contempt for the mighty Babylonian monarch that had recently fallen, vanished as does [the morning star] Venus from the daytime sky." 1
Ezekiel 28:13-17 is similar. It describes an individual as full of wisdom and flawless in beauty, dwelling in an Eden. But "iniquity came to light" in him, and "lawlessness filled his heart." God flung him to the ground. Again, this sounds a bit like Satan. But verse 11 links the passage to the King of Tyre. Note that verse 19 describes how God killed the king and reduced him to ashes so that he "will be no more." Satan is recording in subsequent passages of the Bible as being very much alive and kicking.
Attributes of Satan
Descriptions of the powers, activity and personality of Satan and are scattered throughout the Bible:
He is a created being, a former Archangel, and thus is inferior to God.
He can be only in one place at one time.
He has limits to his knowledge and power.
Satan cannot perform any acts unless God approves (Job1:6 to 2:10).
He is a trickster and an unreliable source of information. John 8:44 speaks of him as a liar, the father of all lies.
He is the ruler of the earth (John 12:31, Ephesians 6:12 and 2 Corinthians 4:4)
He leads a personal army of demons (Matthew 12:24)
He can adopt a spirit form, reside inside a person and influence their thoughts and behavior: Ephesians 2:2 describes him as a spirit who works within "the children of disobedience."
John 13:2 describes how Satan "put into" Judas Iscariot's mind the decision to betray Jesus.
Acts 5:3 describes how Satan filled Ananias' heart with the decision to lie to the Holy Ghost about the proceeds of a real estate sale
His existence places humans in extreme peril.. 1 Peter 5:8 describes him as a dangerous entity, a roaring lion, who roams all over the earth "seeking whom he may devour."
The Bible describes Satan as having a personal army of demons (from "daimon" meaning "intelligent" in Greek) to assist him.
Any use fella??
the serpent who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4 & Genesis 3:14)
Satan (1 Chronicles 21:1)
the adversary playing the role of prosecuting attorney in a heavenly court with God and the angels (Job 1:6 & Zechariah 3:1-2 & 1 Peter 5:8)
as the devil (from the Greek "diabolos" which means "slanderer"), the temper of Jesus (Matthew 4:1-3, Luke 4:2)
the prince of the demons, Beelzebub (Matthew 12:24, Mark 3:22, Luke 11:15)
unclean spirit (Matthew 12:43)
the evil one (Matthew 13:19 & 1 John 2:13)
the author of all evil (Luke 10:19)
a murderer and the father of lies (John 8:44)
the prince of this world (John 12:31 & 14:30 & 16:11)
a demon able to enter into a human body (John 13:27)
god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)
Belial (2 Corinthians 6:15)
prince of the powers of the air, the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2)
power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
an adversary, like a roaring lion who walks about seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8)
the angel of the abyss, named Abaddon in Hebrew, Apollyon in Greek (Revelation 9:11)
a great red dragon (Revelation 12:3 & 12:9 & 20:2)
the accuser of our brethren who accuses Christians before God day and night (Revelation 12:10)
the dragon, the old serpent (Revelation 20:2)
In addition, there are three passages that are considered by some Christians as descriptions of Satan. They are often quoted in isolation as references to the devil:
2 Kings 1:2-4 contains a reference to Baal-zebub. This passage describes how King Ahaziah of Samaria had an accident. He fell through a latticed window in his roof-chamber and injured himself. He decided to send messengers to Ekron, a nearby Phoenician city to inquire of their god Baal-zebub whether he would recover from the accident. Baal was the principal god of the Phoenicians; his name might have meant "Master of the Heavenly House." The ancient Israelites followed Baal's name with "zebul" which means "dung;" this produced the insulting term "Baal-zebul" which was later corrupted to "Baal-zebub." "Baal-zebub" was simply a religiously intolerant, insulting term for "Baal," the main deity of a neighboring tribe. The name had no connection to Satan. (Conservative Christians would disagree with this assessment; to many of them, all gods and goddesses other than Jehovah are in fact demons.) By the time of Jesus' ministry, the related name "Beelzebul" had apparently become a nickname for Satan. It remains so today.
Isaiah 14:12-24 is interpreted by some as referring to Satan by the name "helel" in Hebrew. This is often translated as "Lucifer" or "Morning Star." The passage describes how he had fallen from heaven, was thrown to earth, expressed a desire to sit "on the mountains where the Gods assemble", wished to be like God, and had attacked many cities, leaving them in ruins. At first glance, this looks like a description of some of the activities of Satan. However, verse 4 clearly states that the passage refers to the King of Babylon, not to Satan. Isaiah was simply showing "sarcastic contempt for the mighty Babylonian monarch that had recently fallen, vanished as does [the morning star] Venus from the daytime sky." 1
Ezekiel 28:13-17 is similar. It describes an individual as full of wisdom and flawless in beauty, dwelling in an Eden. But "iniquity came to light" in him, and "lawlessness filled his heart." God flung him to the ground. Again, this sounds a bit like Satan. But verse 11 links the passage to the King of Tyre. Note that verse 19 describes how God killed the king and reduced him to ashes so that he "will be no more." Satan is recording in subsequent passages of the Bible as being very much alive and kicking.
Attributes of Satan
Descriptions of the powers, activity and personality of Satan and are scattered throughout the Bible:
He is a created being, a former Archangel, and thus is inferior to God.
He can be only in one place at one time.
He has limits to his knowledge and power.
Satan cannot perform any acts unless God approves (Job1:6 to 2:10).
He is a trickster and an unreliable source of information. John 8:44 speaks of him as a liar, the father of all lies.
He is the ruler of the earth (John 12:31, Ephesians 6:12 and 2 Corinthians 4:4)
He leads a personal army of demons (Matthew 12:24)
He can adopt a spirit form, reside inside a person and influence their thoughts and behavior: Ephesians 2:2 describes him as a spirit who works within "the children of disobedience."
John 13:2 describes how Satan "put into" Judas Iscariot's mind the decision to betray Jesus.
Acts 5:3 describes how Satan filled Ananias' heart with the decision to lie to the Holy Ghost about the proceeds of a real estate sale
His existence places humans in extreme peril.. 1 Peter 5:8 describes him as a dangerous entity, a roaring lion, who roams all over the earth "seeking whom he may devour."
The Bible describes Satan as having a personal army of demons (from "daimon" meaning "intelligent" in Greek) to assist him.
Any use fella??
Scruffy said:
Lots of stuff
Thank you very much. All that has hit the nail on the head of what I've been thinking.
I've had an idea for an essay for a while, about how the whole God/Devil thing is a bit round the wrong way. My limited knowledge is that God can be a nasty piece of work (killing everyone but Noah and family for example) and I wanted to know just how bad the devil is to do a compare/contrast.
But from what you say, it seems that the 'devil' is just an interpretation of the side of God and co that dishes out the bad stuff.
Could you point me in the direction of any reading matter on this subject. As an athiest I find the whole religion thing hard to understand and enjoy a good debate on the subject providing I can do it from a well informed perspective.
Thanks.
jimothy said:
Scruffy said:
Lots of stuff
Could you point me in the direction of any reading matter on this subject. As an athiest I find the whole religion thing hard to understand...
Most of the above (below?) is gleaned from a talk me and my ex did for a pagan moot about Satan a while ago, I could mail you the entire transcript if you want...
It's a bit geeky, and bits covered include
Bible passages about Satan
Attributes of Satan
Beliefs about Satan: By the general population, and by liberal Christians, conservative Protestants, and Roman Catholics
The development of the concept of Satan:
Before 300 BCE to 100 CE
100 CE to the present time
Also
Demons
Demon possession and Exorcisms
i.e. '...Some of the concepts that people hold about the devil are:
Most conservative Christian churches teach beliefs that are grounded in the 1st century CE - that Satan is a profoundly evil, fallen angel who is totally dedicated to the destruction of everyone's lives. He is a supernatural being who "walketh about, seeking whom he may devour," and is aided by countless demons. He and his demons are all pervasive. They engage in world-wide "spiritual warfare," and are a continual threat to all. They can dwell within people, as in demon possession.
Liberal Christian churches tend to view Satan as a principle or concept of evil, without any physical existence or personality. They acknowledge that Jesus and his disciples believed in the presence of a living entity called Satan. They realize that the gospel writers wrote of exorcisms which drove indwelling demons from within people. But they attribute these beliefs to the pre-scientific level of knowledge at the time.
Archeologists and anthropologists, religious historians and other researchers have traced the development of the concept of Satan from its origin in the Zoroastrian religion, via the ancient Babylonian Empire, to ancient Judaism, and finally into Christianity.
Most present-day Satanists belong to religious groups such as the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. Most of the former are Agnostics; they do not believe in Satan as a living entity or as a God; they view Satan as a basic force or principle of nature. Members of the Temple of Set recognize the ancient Egyptian god Set as a deity. Both groups' beliefs of Satan have little in common with Christian beliefs...'
Do you really want it all??
Edited'cause the devil makes work for idle...etc
>> Edited by Scruffy on Monday 21st March 18:48
Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff