Fessing up points
Discussion
No, not looking for a way out. Have been diligently fessing up an SP30 for 4 years and will have to do it one last time this summer. Except DVLA have now removed all trace of it from my record as it is obviously spent. How do I reliably convey the info to the insurance thieves?
And no, I didnt think to write a note to keep somewhere for 5 years, just to keep the meercats happy. Seems a bit silly to require someone to provide details of something that even the government cant be bothered to keep any more.
And no, I didnt think to write a note to keep somewhere for 5 years, just to keep the meercats happy. Seems a bit silly to require someone to provide details of something that even the government cant be bothered to keep any more.
RedSpike66 said:
Ahbefive said:
My insurer asks for details of accidents,claims or convictions in the last 3 years, which is nice.
I noticed some are reducing the 5 years to 3 years recently... How jolly sporting of the fine, upstanding chaps!Some Guy said:
Just to clarify, not trying to get out of it (especially as they probably have copies of my previous submissions). Just that I cant be any more specific than June, or July and hope they understand.
They will. I had a claim that I had to declare last year, all I knew it was towards the end of January 2012. They were fine about it. Same with my CBT, knew it was in December 2012 and that was fine. ging84 said:
the official line is points are not spent until a year after they are removed from the license
if you get a short ban that is not recorded on your license, do you think that means that you never have to tell your insurer about that conviction?
That's not the official line. In fact, nobody is certain what the official line is. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 was supposed to clarify the situation but one reading suggests a five year rehabilitation period for points and another one suggests no rehabilitation period at all.if you get a short ban that is not recorded on your license, do you think that means that you never have to tell your insurer about that conviction?
That's why there's some variability between insurers between five years (which is the period suggested for "other" penalties in the act) and three years (which is how long the points are on the licence.
Prior to the act the insurers were of the opinion that the points weren't a penalty so didn't have a rehabilitation period - meaning that the fine was the thing that caused it to hang around for five years. When the rehabilitation period for a fine was reduced from five years to one they changed their tune...
davepoth said:
That's not the official line. In fact, nobody is certain what the official line is. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 was supposed to clarify the situation but one reading suggests a five year rehabilitation period for points and another one suggests no rehabilitation period at all.
That's why there's some variability between insurers between five years (which is the period suggested for "other" penalties in the act) and three years (which is how long the points are on the licence.
Prior to the act the insurers were of the opinion that the points weren't a penalty so didn't have a rehabilitation period - meaning that the fine was the thing that caused it to hang around for five years. When the rehabilitation period for a fine was reduced from five years to one they changed their tune...
It may be legally dubious but there is an official line, it is outlined here.That's why there's some variability between insurers between five years (which is the period suggested for "other" penalties in the act) and three years (which is how long the points are on the licence.
Prior to the act the insurers were of the opinion that the points weren't a penalty so didn't have a rehabilitation period - meaning that the fine was the thing that caused it to hang around for five years. When the rehabilitation period for a fine was reduced from five years to one they changed their tune...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
ging84 said:
It may be legally dubious but there is an official line, it is outlined here.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Reading that guidance it looks like points given in a fixed penalty notice are spent under the rehabilitation of offenders act after 3 years. If that is the case then you are allowed to answer the question set by the insurers with the reply that you have no convictions, even if the insurer subsequently finds that you have been convicted within 5 years, they cannot take any action as a result of this. They cannot raise premiums, cancel or refuse insurance, or refuse to pay any part of a claim based on the 'wrong' info you've given them.https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
ging84 said:
It may be legally dubious but there is an official line, it is outlined here.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
And directly underneath the section about motoring offences, it says:https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Important Note: This is intended as general guidance only. It is not legal advice and must not be regarded as a definitive interpretation of the 1974 Act. Anyone in doubt should seek their own legal advice.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If something falls outside the rehabilitation period you simply don't have to disclose it unless it is for a reason that is exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act (eg certain jobs, an american visa)So they can ask but you don't have to tell them the truth.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 30th January 23:35
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That one we can field, as the insurance ombudsman ruled on that very issue. http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications...
At the time the fine part of the sentence carried a five year rehabilitation period, the endorsement lasted for eleven. The judge effectively ruled that the endorsement didn't count and was spent at the same time as the conviction.
desolate said:
If something falls outside the rehabilitation period your simply don't have to disclose it unless it is for a reason that is exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act (eg certain jobs, and american visa)
So they can ask but you don't have to tell them the truth.
Even if they do know (through the MIB, for example) your insurer is legally bound to ignore anything that is spent. So they can ask but you don't have to tell them the truth.
davepoth said:
desolate said:
If something falls outside the rehabilitation period your simply don't have to disclose it unless it is for a reason that is exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act (eg certain jobs, and american visa)
So they can ask but you don't have to tell them the truth.
Even if they do know (through the MIB, for example) your insurer is legally bound to ignore anything that is spent. So they can ask but you don't have to tell them the truth.
Renewed two policies this week with new insurer. On original application stated SP30 for wife, April 12. Everything agreed, done and dusted.
Then realise date of SP30 April 11, over 5 years so advised insurer. They reply saying thanks for that no change to premiums, new on line docs being forwarded.
Does this mean there was no penalty for a 4-5 year old offence, and if so why ask for up to 5 years?
brrapp said:
Reading that guidance it looks like points given in a fixed penalty notice are spent under the rehabilitation of offenders act after 3 years. If that is the case then you are allowed to answer the question set by the insurers with the reply that you have no convictions, even if the insurer subsequently finds that you have been convicted within 5 years, they cannot take any action as a result of this. They cannot raise premiums, cancel or refuse insurance, or refuse to pay any part of a claim based on the 'wrong' info you've given them.
Slighty OT, but can someone confirm my understanding - accepting a FPN is not a conviction, so if you are asked about convictions then they aren't relevant. They are regarded as convictions for the purposes of interpreting the law on penalties, previous offences, and the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act with respect to their disclosure when asked about them, but that doesn't make them a conviction. If you don't accept a FPN but go the court and lose, then you would be convicted.
Insurers ask about endorsements and driving offences, not just convictions.
REALIST123 said:
davepoth said:
desolate said:
If something falls outside the rehabilitation period your simply don't have to disclose it unless it is for a reason that is exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act (eg certain jobs, and american visa)
So they can ask but you don't have to tell them the truth.
Even if they do know (through the MIB, for example) your insurer is legally bound to ignore anything that is spent. So they can ask but you don't have to tell them the truth.
Renewed two policies this week with new insurer. On original application stated SP30 for wife, April 12. Everything agreed, done and dusted.
Then realise date of SP30 April 11, over 5 years so advised insurer. They reply saying thanks for that no change to premiums, new on line docs being forwarded.
Does this mean there was no penalty for a 4-5 year old offence, and if so why ask for up to 5 years?
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