Using 'vehicle access rights' as parking - I've had enough.
Discussion
Long and tedious story made as short as I possibly can:
We own a small car park in a city centre, and have done for quite a few years now. The purpose of buying the car park was to provide us with somewhere to park when working in our nearby office, and also somewhere for our company cars to park when the staff are are at the office. Parking is at quite a premium in the city.
There are 12 spaces in total, 6 down each side with enough space to drive a car down the centre and to/from the road, plus a bit more. The few spaces that aren't used by the office are rented out to other people who buy 12 month parking permits from us.
Several fire exits from shops open onto the car park, and one particular shop has caused inconvenience for years now. They have parked their cars, without permission, in the car park for years. They have 'vehicle access rights' to the rear of their shop in their deeds. Most days they have at least one, but often up to three cars parked in there causing chaos for everyone else.
They simply don't care and have stated on many occasions that they won't ever stop doing it because "we can't stop them". They don't use the vehicle access for deliveries or anything work related, just purely for free parking all day, every day.
They were taken to court 2 years ago, but instead of seeing the problem, the judge simply told them to limit their use to "15 minutes at a time", so they cheerfully continued parking there because as far as they were concerned the judge had given them the green light to keep driving in there, and there was pretty much no way the 15 minute rule could be enforced or monitored.
We then engaged a 'Parking Eye' Type company to ticket the offending vehicles in the car park and check other cars for permits, but they have now said they won't do it anymore as they have put literally hundreds and hundreds of tickets on the cars concerned and they have never paid a single one, so they are losing money, plus when they do ticket one, the shop staff just laugh at them and say they've only been there 10 minutes and suchlike, clearly making reference to the fact that they know they can have 15 minutes.
Has anyone ever had experience previously of someone really taking the piss out of vehicle access rights? Any suggestions?
Naturally the next step is take them to court again, but I would be interested in hearing any thoughts on this matter.
Thanks
We own a small car park in a city centre, and have done for quite a few years now. The purpose of buying the car park was to provide us with somewhere to park when working in our nearby office, and also somewhere for our company cars to park when the staff are are at the office. Parking is at quite a premium in the city.
There are 12 spaces in total, 6 down each side with enough space to drive a car down the centre and to/from the road, plus a bit more. The few spaces that aren't used by the office are rented out to other people who buy 12 month parking permits from us.
Several fire exits from shops open onto the car park, and one particular shop has caused inconvenience for years now. They have parked their cars, without permission, in the car park for years. They have 'vehicle access rights' to the rear of their shop in their deeds. Most days they have at least one, but often up to three cars parked in there causing chaos for everyone else.
They simply don't care and have stated on many occasions that they won't ever stop doing it because "we can't stop them". They don't use the vehicle access for deliveries or anything work related, just purely for free parking all day, every day.
They were taken to court 2 years ago, but instead of seeing the problem, the judge simply told them to limit their use to "15 minutes at a time", so they cheerfully continued parking there because as far as they were concerned the judge had given them the green light to keep driving in there, and there was pretty much no way the 15 minute rule could be enforced or monitored.
We then engaged a 'Parking Eye' Type company to ticket the offending vehicles in the car park and check other cars for permits, but they have now said they won't do it anymore as they have put literally hundreds and hundreds of tickets on the cars concerned and they have never paid a single one, so they are losing money, plus when they do ticket one, the shop staff just laugh at them and say they've only been there 10 minutes and suchlike, clearly making reference to the fact that they know they can have 15 minutes.
Has anyone ever had experience previously of someone really taking the piss out of vehicle access rights? Any suggestions?
Naturally the next step is take them to court again, but I would be interested in hearing any thoughts on this matter.
Thanks
With appropriate signage, perhaps CCTV on the carpark and moneyclaim for parking charges to whoever the registered keeper is? They might get fed up with it eventually.
What constitutes access; does it have to be on-demand or can you make it by appointment, 24hr notice etc? Put a gate in and hire someone to man it on random days, they'd soon get bored trying to guess when it will be manned.
What constitutes access; does it have to be on-demand or can you make it by appointment, 24hr notice etc? Put a gate in and hire someone to man it on random days, they'd soon get bored trying to guess when it will be manned.
Edited by hidetheelephants on Sunday 5th February 22:12
The car park does have appropriate signage installed by the last 'parking eye' type company. (it was ripped down several times by the illegal parkers and reinstalled)
There is no electricity supply to the car park and therefore CCTV etc cannot be installed. Even if there was electricity it would have to be some sort of complex wireless CCTV system as the car park is a couple of streets away from the office.
Their access can be at any time of the day or night, whenever they require it. We can't stop them driving into the car park in any way.
It's the fact that then then leave their vehicles all day that's the problem.
There is no electricity supply to the car park and therefore CCTV etc cannot be installed. Even if there was electricity it would have to be some sort of complex wireless CCTV system as the car park is a couple of streets away from the office.
Their access can be at any time of the day or night, whenever they require it. We can't stop them driving into the car park in any way.
It's the fact that then then leave their vehicles all day that's the problem.
NinjaPower said:
PorkInsider said:
Could you put removable bollards in each space and give keys to the authorised users?
See above.Yes, we can do this, but they will carry on driving in and parking in the bit without bollards.
I'm not sure what else you could do. Are they blocking people in or just preventing access to people wanting to get to the spaces?
NinjaPower said:
mph999 said:
Can you put lockable parking posts on the spaces
That is actually something I got a quote for recently, but the issue is that they will still drive in and park down the middle of the car park in the bit that doesn't have posts. Which is where they park at the moment.its not like they could go to court and say that they parked there at the start of the day and when they came to leave at the end they were blocked in now is it
I'd accept that I'm not getting to use them so I'd get some large boulders delivered to block access to the parking spaces completely. I'd then go back to court and not remove them until the case is heard.
FWIW my cousin owns a courtyard that has its entrance and exit onto the main street of our town. The courtyard is part of her own private domicile at the rear. She had the same in that it was being used by the employees of various shops as free parking for seven days a week. She ended up blocking access with boulders and taking it to court.
Now the only people that defy it are the local transit driving travelling scum however when they park she calls me and I tow them out with the discovery which has a 13000lbs winch on it. I've never had a repeat offender and the Police tell them it's a civil matter (we are blessed with sensible Police where we are) as no damage was done to their vans.
Good luck in getting it sorted.
FWIW my cousin owns a courtyard that has its entrance and exit onto the main street of our town. The courtyard is part of her own private domicile at the rear. She had the same in that it was being used by the employees of various shops as free parking for seven days a week. She ended up blocking access with boulders and taking it to court.
Now the only people that defy it are the local transit driving travelling scum however when they park she calls me and I tow them out with the discovery which has a 13000lbs winch on it. I've never had a repeat offender and the Police tell them it's a civil matter (we are blessed with sensible Police where we are) as no damage was done to their vans.
Good luck in getting it sorted.
PorkInsider said:
Yes. I deleted my post as I saw it was already mentioned but you were lightning quick quoting it.
I'm not sure what else you could do. Are they blocking people in or just preventing access to people wanting to get to the spaces?
Both blocking people in and preventing access to the spaces, however will always move their cars when asked by the permit holders. But this is causing inconvenience to the permit holders and we have had several hand theirs back in and demand a refund due to the hassle of always having to ask someone to move to let them in or out.I'm not sure what else you could do. Are they blocking people in or just preventing access to people wanting to get to the spaces?
Alex_225 said:
This is a question as much as anything but are you allowed to clam vehicles is they break the rules on your property?
I'm not a fan of clampers but equally not a fan of people taking the p!ss out of others so can't see it as unfair.
I don't think clamping is legal anymore, but I could be wrong.I'm not a fan of clampers but equally not a fan of people taking the p!ss out of others so can't see it as unfair.
Gate across the entrance to the car park, your staff and permit holders get a key. Nice big sign saying if anyone requires access for unloading they need to call you with.. ooh, lets say 2 hours notice ? You let them in and start a stop watch... at 14:59 they need to be out...
You aren't stopping them having vehicle access but are protecting your spaces as is your right.
You aren't stopping them having vehicle access but are protecting your spaces as is your right.
Crafty_ said:
Gate across the entrance to the car park, your staff and permit holders get a key. Nice big sign saying if anyone requires access for unloading they need to call you with.. ooh, lets say 2 hours notice ? You let them in and start a stop watch... at 14:59 they need to be out...
You aren't stopping them having vehicle access but are protecting your spaces as is your right.
I'll ask the solicitor about this, however I suspect that any form of barrier to which they didn't have key would be classed as infringing on their rights to access the rear of the shop whenever they want.You aren't stopping them having vehicle access but are protecting your spaces as is your right.
Plus, you let them in, after 15 minutes you say "times up, you need to leave" and they laugh, say f
k off, and go in their shop.NinjaPower said:
I'll ask the solicitor about this, however I suspect that any form of barrier to which they didn't have key would be classed as infringing on their rights to access the rear of the shop whenever they want.
Plus, you let them in, after 15 minutes you say "times up, you need to leave" and they laugh, say fk off, and go in their shop.
With regards to them ignoring the 15 minute decree, I'd document cases of this and then go back to court - if the previous judge's decree was they should be limited to 15 minutes and they are ignoring it, surely they are ignoring the word of the court ?Plus, you let them in, after 15 minutes you say "times up, you need to leave" and they laugh, say f
k off, and go in their shop.Could you park your car with a permanently live dashcam to record comings and goings ?
Crafty_ said:
With regards to them ignoring the 15 minute decree, I'd document cases of this and then go back to court - if the previous judge's decree was they should be limited to 15 minutes and they are ignoring it, surely they are ignoring the word of the court ?
Could you park your car with a permanently live dashcam to record comings and goings ?
Yes, I could video the activity using a dashcam. It would certainly show the offenders parking all day as uaual.Could you park your car with a permanently live dashcam to record comings and goings ?
Perhaps going back to court with such evidence is really the only way. The problem is, if you own a property which has vehicle access rights in the deeds, can a judge really withdraw these from you?
Is there a way of rearranging the car park to keep their access and seperate it from the other spaces whilst still permitting access to the other spaces? Just wondering if you can create 2 access routes, one to their shop and one to the rest of the car park so they only block themselves in.
NinjaPower said:
The car park does have appropriate signage installed by the last 'parking eye' type company. (it was ripped down several times by the illegal parkers and reinstalled)
There is no electricity supply to the car park and therefore CCTV etc cannot be installed. Even if there was electricity it would have to be some sort of complex wireless CCTV system as the car park is a couple of streets away from the office.
Their access can be at any time of the day or night, whenever they require it. We can't stop them driving into the car park in any way.
It's the fact that then then leave their vehicles all day that's the problem.
Solar power and/or battery power is more than capable of running wireless CCTV these days; the PE-alike are being rather wet if they haven't pursued reg. keepers for the unpaid tickets.There is no electricity supply to the car park and therefore CCTV etc cannot be installed. Even if there was electricity it would have to be some sort of complex wireless CCTV system as the car park is a couple of streets away from the office.
Their access can be at any time of the day or night, whenever they require it. We can't stop them driving into the car park in any way.
It's the fact that then then leave their vehicles all day that's the problem.
I'd want to know exactly what access as required means practically; assuming it's within the limits of practicability you're back to hiring a bloke to man the gate on random days, leaving the gate open on days he's not there, locking it overnight and providing an out-of-hours number for the annoying pricks, you need to make yourself more annoying for them than they are for you.
I don't think deeds would be altered by a court - I'd think thats more a scenario for deeds to be changed and you compensating them for loss of access ?
What it might do is give you more freedom to secure the car park, maybe with a barrier and requested access as suggested, or some other sort of stipulation that they must abide by.
If it got that far you could always suggest that they buy permits from you for the spaces they use, any car without a permit gets removed.
I wonder if any other parking companies would have a solution ? they must come across this sort of situation elsewhere.
Ignoring the power issue, is there somewhere you could install a camera ? http://sunstone-systems.co.uk/products/solar-wind-...
I don't know costs, but that would let you prove they are overstaying their welcome.
What it might do is give you more freedom to secure the car park, maybe with a barrier and requested access as suggested, or some other sort of stipulation that they must abide by.
If it got that far you could always suggest that they buy permits from you for the spaces they use, any car without a permit gets removed.
I wonder if any other parking companies would have a solution ? they must come across this sort of situation elsewhere.
Ignoring the power issue, is there somewhere you could install a camera ? http://sunstone-systems.co.uk/products/solar-wind-...
I don't know costs, but that would let you prove they are overstaying their welcome.
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