Big brother to catch criminals...good or bad...
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Privacy concerns over police road camera plans
James Sturcke and agencies
Wednesday March 23, 2005
Civil liberties campaigners and motoring organisations urged caution today after it emerged police are to set up a national network of cameras across England and Wales to track down criminals using the roads.
The scheme will use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to identify vehicles the police want to trace. The system was tested by 23 forces between June 2003 and June 2004, leading to a substantial number of arrests, police said.
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The cameras scan vehicle number plates, which are compared in less than a second with a database containing more than 8.5m plate numbers. If a "wanted" vehicle passes the camera, it can be identified and tracked.
A human rights group today warned that advances in crime fighting technology such as ANPR were outpacing laws preventing the misuse of information.
"Our position is that these new technologies need to be developed together with legislation that protects individuals' liberties," a spokeswoman for Liberty said.
"If they are being used to by police to enforce the law and convict criminals, that is fine. But we do have concerns if the new technology is being used to trace people's movements."
A spokesman for the RAC said the organisation broadly welcomed ANPR technology, particularly for its effectiveness in identifying uninsured motorists. However, he warned that ANPR technology was "vulnerable in that determined criminals can steal other cars' identities."
The chief constable of North Wales police, Richard Brunstrom, said ANPR had increased his force's motoring arrest rate 10-fold.
"It is by far the most successful measure we have found to bring criminals to justice," he told Sky News.
He confirmed the system was being deployed in the hunt for people in connection with non-motoring offences, such as robbery. He also said it could be seen by critics as a revenue-raising tool for the force. He said motorists with tax disks slightly out of date need not worry about being stopped but those whose vehicle licences had expired six months previously could expect to be pulled over.
"Our belief, and that of the government, is that criminals should pay for policing, not taxpayers," he said.
The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) said the ANPR trials had led to 13,499 arrests, including 2,263 for theft and burglary and 1,107 for drugs offences.
The government has pledged £15m to implement ANPR this year.
James Sturcke and agencies
Wednesday March 23, 2005
Civil liberties campaigners and motoring organisations urged caution today after it emerged police are to set up a national network of cameras across England and Wales to track down criminals using the roads.
The scheme will use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to identify vehicles the police want to trace. The system was tested by 23 forces between June 2003 and June 2004, leading to a substantial number of arrests, police said.
Article continues
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The cameras scan vehicle number plates, which are compared in less than a second with a database containing more than 8.5m plate numbers. If a "wanted" vehicle passes the camera, it can be identified and tracked.
A human rights group today warned that advances in crime fighting technology such as ANPR were outpacing laws preventing the misuse of information.
"Our position is that these new technologies need to be developed together with legislation that protects individuals' liberties," a spokeswoman for Liberty said.
"If they are being used to by police to enforce the law and convict criminals, that is fine. But we do have concerns if the new technology is being used to trace people's movements."
A spokesman for the RAC said the organisation broadly welcomed ANPR technology, particularly for its effectiveness in identifying uninsured motorists. However, he warned that ANPR technology was "vulnerable in that determined criminals can steal other cars' identities."
The chief constable of North Wales police, Richard Brunstrom, said ANPR had increased his force's motoring arrest rate 10-fold.
"It is by far the most successful measure we have found to bring criminals to justice," he told Sky News.
He confirmed the system was being deployed in the hunt for people in connection with non-motoring offences, such as robbery. He also said it could be seen by critics as a revenue-raising tool for the force. He said motorists with tax disks slightly out of date need not worry about being stopped but those whose vehicle licences had expired six months previously could expect to be pulled over.
"Our belief, and that of the government, is that criminals should pay for policing, not taxpayers," he said.
The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) said the ANPR trials had led to 13,499 arrests, including 2,263 for theft and burglary and 1,107 for drugs offences.
The government has pledged £15m to implement ANPR this year.
I've been part of a team from one of the pilot forces. Suffice to say that we catch a lot of baddies (which include murderers, rapists, thieves and similar types) as well as disqualified, uninsured drivers and other vagabonds who are attemting to evade justice. Oh, and umpteen thousand pounds worth of stolen TVR's/Porches/similar exotica as well as the more mundane family cars...... Yes, we also detect/collect Tax type tickets for DVLA. (I pay the full whack on all my cars, why not the rest of the world). Yes, there are concerns of civil liberties but, I would suggest, they fall under the same concerns as the video tapes used in town centres, your local Asda/Morrisons and the like.
Scenario - you are off on your well earned and paid for 3 week jaunt to the Maldives and, on your return, discover your favourite Chimera stolen. Oooops - forgot to fit tracker? Contact plod who can look at the system and discover (perhaps...) where the car has gone. Bonus - the picture of the driver is recognised and a starter for 10 (as Bamber used to say..) is on the cards as long as you return and report within the time that the pictures are retained before destruction.
Sorry, all you civil libertarians. I, for one, have seen the good side of this and welcome it. If you sit back and look at the bigger picture so, perhaps, should you.
Scenario - you are off on your well earned and paid for 3 week jaunt to the Maldives and, on your return, discover your favourite Chimera stolen. Oooops - forgot to fit tracker? Contact plod who can look at the system and discover (perhaps...) where the car has gone. Bonus - the picture of the driver is recognised and a starter for 10 (as Bamber used to say..) is on the cards as long as you return and report within the time that the pictures are retained before destruction.
Sorry, all you civil libertarians. I, for one, have seen the good side of this and welcome it. If you sit back and look at the bigger picture so, perhaps, should you.
The big picture is quite a scary one though.
Imagine this gov't get their way and establish a national ID database. It will link to the DVLA database. That will link to tthese cameras. Anyone with access to this data (and how often at gov't IT projects securer and functional?) can track the movements of any individual.
The benefits are that we catch more criminals. We can catch even more criminals if we electronically tag every individual in this country. Do we want to do that?
Imagine this gov't get their way and establish a national ID database. It will link to the DVLA database. That will link to tthese cameras. Anyone with access to this data (and how often at gov't IT projects securer and functional?) can track the movements of any individual.
The benefits are that we catch more criminals. We can catch even more criminals if we electronically tag every individual in this country. Do we want to do that?
Presumably this is another BIB propoganda thread?
I think it's one for the BIB sycophants. Maybe I'm too cynical.
Personally I think that BIB ought to learn to fight crime with their own brains, not artificial ones.
Waiting for the flames.......
>> Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 23 March 22:35
I think it's one for the BIB sycophants. Maybe I'm too cynical.
Personally I think that BIB ought to learn to fight crime with their own brains, not artificial ones.
Waiting for the flames.......
>> Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 23 March 22:35
dilbert said:
Presumably this is another BIB propoganda thread?
I think it's one for the BIB sycophants. Maybe I'm too cynical.
Personally I think that BIB ought to learn to fight crime with their own brains, not artificial ones.
Waiting for the flames.......
>> Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 23 March 22:35
I have read a few comments by you dilbert, do you seriously just have something against those who work to protect? or could you teach the BIB how to be Psychic and know which car out of how many is the stolen one that contains a murderer, we would be most grateful??
If not. dont expect something from others you could not do yourself!
dilbert said:Fighting crime is reasonably straightforward, after a time, and with experience. If we fail to allow computers to assist in this (ANPR) fashion, should we also disallow DNA or, heaven forbid, good old fashioned fingerprints, since they also prevent officers to use their brains, according to Dilbert?
Presumably this is another BIB propoganda thread?
I think it's one for the BIB sycophants. Maybe I'm too cynical.
Personally I think that BIB ought to learn to fight crime with their own brains, not artificial ones.
Waiting for the flames.......
>> Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 23 March 22:35
dilbert said:Which particular style of evidence would you desire? Facts and figures? - I think not, in such a venue. Check out the web. Lots of good stuff there. search string - ANPR & police.....
Interestingly, if I had control (which I don't), I wouldn't mind Guizer using whatever evidence he chose.
Laptop, I'd be much more concerned about.
The system works similar to this - all out there are treated as law abiding citizens, going about their lawful business, until evidence/intelligence submissions show them to be something else. Thankfully, those with a more rounded view of good and bad have control and not a volunteer such as above.
Yes, it does place more emphasis on 'real criminals' as opposed to the general motoring public who may or may not be speeding. It does work and, had it been in place a year or so ago, may have gone some way to preventing at least a couple of deaths of Officers, had information been available indicating the gunman in the speeding BMW.......
dilbert said:
Interestingly, if I had control (which I don't), I wouldn't mind Guizer using whatever evidence he chose.
Laptop, I'd be much more concerned about.
Well such is life. please feel free to be concerned and maybe one day I will assist you when you are the victim of a crime and will give you the much needed faith in your police service
Guizer...
Isn't there more to it than that. I'd have thought that politicians would be keen to "massage" detected crime figures by "encoraging" the collection of "revenues" by "saftey camera".
I'm actually quite pragmatic about it. I just see the signs of what seems to me like something quite sinister going on.
If you actually spend ay time watching parliamet these days, you quite quickly realise that the only people talking any sense are peers in the "sentient - over 65" bracket. Thats quite a generalisation, so I hope you'll follow.
I suppose the big, and quite serious, fear is that these people are the anchor, and they really don't have much power. I'm guessing but I'd have thought that some of their realism is attributable to their living memory of the war.
I don't see the BIB arguing against their masters, who is left to prevent the BIB becoming a hypothetical "SS". I know this is an extreme, it is merely intended to be illustrative.
I suppose my fear is supported by a police force looking for more power, rather than maintaining the status quo.
I'm honestly pretty worried about the direction were going to finish up with at this juncture. I don't have any particular fear of technology, but I am quite fearfull of the power it gives to those who MAY not deserve it.
>> Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 23 March 23:23
Isn't there more to it than that. I'd have thought that politicians would be keen to "massage" detected crime figures by "encoraging" the collection of "revenues" by "saftey camera".
I'm actually quite pragmatic about it. I just see the signs of what seems to me like something quite sinister going on.
If you actually spend ay time watching parliamet these days, you quite quickly realise that the only people talking any sense are peers in the "sentient - over 65" bracket. Thats quite a generalisation, so I hope you'll follow.
I suppose the big, and quite serious, fear is that these people are the anchor, and they really don't have much power. I'm guessing but I'd have thought that some of their realism is attributable to their living memory of the war.
I don't see the BIB arguing against their masters, who is left to prevent the BIB becoming a hypothetical "SS". I know this is an extreme, it is merely intended to be illustrative.
I suppose my fear is supported by a police force looking for more power, rather than maintaining the status quo.
I'm honestly pretty worried about the direction were going to finish up with at this juncture. I don't have any particular fear of technology, but I am quite fearfull of the power it gives to those who MAY not deserve it.
>> Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 23 March 23:23
Fixed ANPR locations/Time = SPECS 
Thanks, but no thanks. If the political masters didn't insist that the police spent 75% of their time form filling, they could be out on the roads doing the job we all want them to do.
Sorry, but the powers that be will use it to generate a revenue stream on the side, while telling us it helps to make our lives safer.
I'm firmly in the NO camp.
Thanks, but no thanks. If the political masters didn't insist that the police spent 75% of their time form filling, they could be out on the roads doing the job we all want them to do.
Sorry, but the powers that be will use it to generate a revenue stream on the side, while telling us it helps to make our lives safer.
I'm firmly in the NO camp.
BliarOut said:
Fixed ANPR locations/Time = SPECS
Thanks, but no thanks. If the political masters didn't insist that the police spent 75% of their time form filling, they could be out on the roads doing the job we all want them to do.
Sorry, but the powers that be will use it to generate a revenue stream on the side, while telling us it helps to make our lives safer.
I'm firmly in the NO camp.
I take your point, but do you think that the camera's will be that close together tomake a speeding charge stick? Fancy a cannonball run type event in the UK where average speeds are nickable overseveral hundred miles? Or just prefer to see the movement of armed robbers and major dealers?
The article said:
urged caution
I have concerns regarding these systems, my main issue is the quality of data. The data sources that the BIB have to work with are questionable and given that they are government promoted computer projects, I would protest that due diligence is not adhered to.
Any extension should be given a public review and true openness shown. The statement 'if you have nothing to hid......', when was the last time you looked at your speedo, Paranoid you will be, Friday I get a demand from the Robbinu threatening action, Monday I get a refund, both from the same office, both signed by the same person, both for the same accounting period. What if I had been 'lifted' over the weekend, to be held under 'customs' remit having been fingered by erroneous data.
Besides all that the data storage and retrieval system suppliers must be laughing all the way to an off-shore island, safe in the knowledge that the systems will soon be unable to cope with the shear amount of data.
In the hands of BIB only, for their use only, to tackle societies problems re 'crime' gets my vote. But define 'crime' first and get decent data.
guizer said:
Fixed ANPR locations/Time = SPECS
Thanks, but no thanks. If the political masters didn't insist that the police spent 75% of their time form filling, they could be out on the roads doing the job we all want them to do.
Sorry, but the powers that be will use it to generate a revenue stream on the side, while telling us it helps to make our lives safer.
I'm firmly in the NO camp.
I take your point, but do you think that the camera's will be that close together tomake a speeding charge stick? Fancy a cannonball run type event in the UK where average speeds are nickable overseveral hundred miles? Or just prefer to see the movement of armed robbers and major dealers?
If there's a profit to be made, you bet they will
viggen114 said:
urged caution
The data sources that the BIB have to work with are questionable and given that they are government promoted computer projects, I would protest that due diligence is not adhered to..........In the hands of BIB only, for their use only, to tackle societies problems re 'crime' gets my vote. But define 'crime' first and get decent data.
To work effectively, we are talking criminal intelligence, not out of range DVLA or similar. And national CRIMINAL type vehicle databases.
At present, if the car thats stolen in, say, London, travels to Birmingham, its probable that, if it is driven by someone who does not otherwise draw police attention, it could do so with impunity. And how many cops between London and Birmingham are made aware of that particular theft in London, so far away, with so many others on their own doorstep? If the system gives the BiB an edge, then surely it must be worth at least some houseroom?
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