Air Cooled RS Evolution - 964 vs 993
Discussion
So picking up on a number of recent threads which is the best bet trackday/fast road platform for ultimate evolution.
I have a RHD 964RS currently in pretty std form. I love it. It is the best feeling car I have ever driven...and I'm getting gradually quicker in it!
At recent trackdays I'm getting very frustrated on the straightbits being outpaced by 3.8 based 911's of all types.
On the basis that I don't want to join the Fat Wet Club (GT3/RS) but want to get as close to them as humanely possible do I;
1)take a trip to warrington and mod the hell out of the 94
2)take the money that'll cost and buy a 93....then go to warrington....!
From the perspective of cost, performance, feel AND resale, which, in the opinion of the forum's not inexperienced contributors is the route to go?
Colin, specifically you do a lot, clearly on 964's, yet you choose a 993 to compete in a discipline which to a layman would appear to benefit from the light weight, deftness of steering of a 964RS moded to +2?
I have a RHD 964RS currently in pretty std form. I love it. It is the best feeling car I have ever driven...and I'm getting gradually quicker in it!
At recent trackdays I'm getting very frustrated on the straightbits being outpaced by 3.8 based 911's of all types.
On the basis that I don't want to join the Fat Wet Club (GT3/RS) but want to get as close to them as humanely possible do I;
1)take a trip to warrington and mod the hell out of the 94
2)take the money that'll cost and buy a 93....then go to warrington....!
From the perspective of cost, performance, feel AND resale, which, in the opinion of the forum's not inexperienced contributors is the route to go?
Colin, specifically you do a lot, clearly on 964's, yet you choose a 993 to compete in a discipline which to a layman would appear to benefit from the light weight, deftness of steering of a 964RS moded to +2?
Don't own either, been out in both, been hanging around here too long (mis-spent youth), so:
How much road work do you do? Is this a weekend fun car, or solely a road legal track day warrior?
If the former, sell it. Buy a 993RS and get Colin to rolling road tune it. That's a great start.
If the latter, keep the 964 and go see Colin ASAP!!! Use the money you would have spent on a 993RS on some Dunlop SSR or Michelin Cup tyres, and Motec the hell out of it...
IMHO, etc.
VS
How much road work do you do? Is this a weekend fun car, or solely a road legal track day warrior?
If the former, sell it. Buy a 993RS and get Colin to rolling road tune it. That's a great start.
If the latter, keep the 964 and go see Colin ASAP!!! Use the money you would have spent on a 993RS on some Dunlop SSR or Michelin Cup tyres, and Motec the hell out of it...
IMHO, etc.
VS
I use the car for road and track use, so i went for the 993 option....
The 964RS is truly a great car, especially on sticky rubber, I am suprised you are far behind 3.8 litre cars? from my experience the sticky tyred 964RS can carry enough corner speed that it has a good start on the strights. 3.8 costs becent money to tune, the 964RS in 3.6 form can reach 300ish bhp for a modest outlay, where it has a power/weight advantage over the 993.
Don't take offence, but maybe very much like myself some decent tuition would be a major factor in getting the best out of your car?
These cars are very rewarding when you get things right and this is enough for me not to have the urge to buy a faster 996 version and be one of the quickest on the straights.
The 964RS is truly a great car, especially on sticky rubber, I am suprised you are far behind 3.8 litre cars? from my experience the sticky tyred 964RS can carry enough corner speed that it has a good start on the strights. 3.8 costs becent money to tune, the 964RS in 3.6 form can reach 300ish bhp for a modest outlay, where it has a power/weight advantage over the 993.
Don't take offence, but maybe very much like myself some decent tuition would be a major factor in getting the best out of your car?
These cars are very rewarding when you get things right and this is enough for me not to have the urge to buy a faster 996 version and be one of the quickest on the straights.
jimbers,
It's a good point you make, why does Colin compete in the 993 RS CS when the lighter 964 RS could be made to have a superior power-to-weight ratio for less outlay? Possibly because Colin can obviously modify the 993 engine cheaper than us and so the money isn't as important?
My modified 993 RS sits on lowered suspension and it is pretty harsh on bumpy roads, a bit like a 964 RS in fact. So I didn't chose my 993 RS over a 964 RS because it rides better on British bumpy roads. Nope.......I just love the look of the 993 RS. It is a beautiful car. I justify the extra cost over a 964 RS because in my opinion it looks a lot nicer, the best looking 911 ever made IMHO.
I think it even holds its own in the looks stakes against Adam's 160 grand Ruf:
It's a good point you make, why does Colin compete in the 993 RS CS when the lighter 964 RS could be made to have a superior power-to-weight ratio for less outlay? Possibly because Colin can obviously modify the 993 engine cheaper than us and so the money isn't as important?
My modified 993 RS sits on lowered suspension and it is pretty harsh on bumpy roads, a bit like a 964 RS in fact. So I didn't chose my 993 RS over a 964 RS because it rides better on British bumpy roads. Nope.......I just love the look of the 993 RS. It is a beautiful car. I justify the extra cost over a 964 RS because in my opinion it looks a lot nicer, the best looking 911 ever made IMHO.
I think it even holds its own in the looks stakes against Adam's 160 grand Ruf:
I would expect that the reason many people choose a 993 over a 964 is evolution, the rear suspension of the 993 is better...in standard form a 993Rs would be quicker and easier to drive....hard to compare as I don't remember the last time I saw a non modified 964Rs.
The 993 is also the last of the aircooled cars...as fantastic as the GT3 lump is in many respects the accountants did compromise on other aspects of the package ...from my impressions anyhow..
Hey...Johnny....you quite like your new car don't you?
The 993 is also the last of the aircooled cars...as fantastic as the GT3 lump is in many respects the accountants did compromise on other aspects of the package ...from my impressions anyhow..
Hey...Johnny....you quite like your new car don't you?
Great question! Believe it or not, when I bought my 993RSR I could not afford a 964RS. I better explain:
My RSR came to 9m after a customer had been a little "indiscreet" with the car on the road. At the time I was looking around for options and had just started out on our 964RS tuning programme, but such was the price for the 993RSR in its 3rd party state that I could not help but buy it. To bring it into the stable I begged borrowed & stole, then went half & half for the car with Pete Morris. We repaired it then shared the car on the hills & sprint circuits for a couple of years.
Eventually a 964RS Clubsport came up for sale again at a price that we could not refuse, so again me and Pete went halves on the deal. We then owned 2 clubsports, one of each. Pete's animal instincts led him to prefer the rawness of the 964, so eventually I paid him the difference in value between my two half shares and I owned the 993RSR outright.
Given a straight choice today between a 964RSR at £35k and a 993RSR at £55k I would buy the 964 and spend some of the difference on tuning the 964 for more top end power and fitting a 6 speed gearbox. The 964RS is an awesome car that just needs more grunt which is easily achieved with Motec & cams. The chassis differences are noticeable, but on the track the 964RS is definitely more focussed out of the box and in some respects an easier car to get your head around.
The 993RS engine is not an easy one to find significant gains from, it is crying out for new heads & induction system, and that gets expensive. However if you can afford the 993RSR and could find £20k to spend on the engine at a later date it becomes a much better prospect due to the more forgiving chassis which will handle a lot more power (shares chassis with GT2). Given the weight advantage it then becomes a comfortable GT3 beater on the track as well.
As someone said, since all my development work is tax deductable I can "afford" to build the ultimate aircooled engine for my RSR by not paying myself occasionally (don't tell the wife!). Hopefully very soon we will be the right side of 400bhp with our new billet heads rather than the 390+ we achieved last year, at which point my 993RSR (now at 1150kg) will be flying past GT3RS's on the tracks (not that they could keep up with it before).
But this also begs the question what would a 1070kg 964RSR do with 400bhp?
My answer to your original question would be to just fit Motec onto your 964RS and see if 325bhp is enough for you. If not, take it off, swap the car for a 993RS and then use the same Motec system to start the ball rolling on the 993RS engine development once the funds permit, that way you are not losing money on tuning a car for someone else's benefit.
>> Edited by ninemeister on Saturday 26th March 11:35
My RSR came to 9m after a customer had been a little "indiscreet" with the car on the road. At the time I was looking around for options and had just started out on our 964RS tuning programme, but such was the price for the 993RSR in its 3rd party state that I could not help but buy it. To bring it into the stable I begged borrowed & stole, then went half & half for the car with Pete Morris. We repaired it then shared the car on the hills & sprint circuits for a couple of years.
Eventually a 964RS Clubsport came up for sale again at a price that we could not refuse, so again me and Pete went halves on the deal. We then owned 2 clubsports, one of each. Pete's animal instincts led him to prefer the rawness of the 964, so eventually I paid him the difference in value between my two half shares and I owned the 993RSR outright.
Given a straight choice today between a 964RSR at £35k and a 993RSR at £55k I would buy the 964 and spend some of the difference on tuning the 964 for more top end power and fitting a 6 speed gearbox. The 964RS is an awesome car that just needs more grunt which is easily achieved with Motec & cams. The chassis differences are noticeable, but on the track the 964RS is definitely more focussed out of the box and in some respects an easier car to get your head around.
The 993RS engine is not an easy one to find significant gains from, it is crying out for new heads & induction system, and that gets expensive. However if you can afford the 993RSR and could find £20k to spend on the engine at a later date it becomes a much better prospect due to the more forgiving chassis which will handle a lot more power (shares chassis with GT2). Given the weight advantage it then becomes a comfortable GT3 beater on the track as well.
As someone said, since all my development work is tax deductable I can "afford" to build the ultimate aircooled engine for my RSR by not paying myself occasionally (don't tell the wife!). Hopefully very soon we will be the right side of 400bhp with our new billet heads rather than the 390+ we achieved last year, at which point my 993RSR (now at 1150kg) will be flying past GT3RS's on the tracks (not that they could keep up with it before).
But this also begs the question what would a 1070kg 964RSR do with 400bhp?
My answer to your original question would be to just fit Motec onto your 964RS and see if 325bhp is enough for you. If not, take it off, swap the car for a 993RS and then use the same Motec system to start the ball rolling on the 993RS engine development once the funds permit, that way you are not losing money on tuning a car for someone else's benefit.
>> Edited by ninemeister on Saturday 26th March 11:35
Shouldnt be much in it between 993RS & 964RS, 964RS responds v well to inexpensive chip & decat & standard 993RS are usually a tad down on quoted power, sometimes a fair bit more than a tad (timing pully slip) & not cheap to get more from it, 993 is less twitchy tho & easier to drive fast for a non Walter Rohl type.
I'd suggest your 964 is either down on power or you are not pedaling it hard enough, with a couple of exceptions most of the 993RS I've seen around are not driven to the max of their capabilities on track anyway, thus a decent driver in even just a chipped 964 should have no probs.
>> Edited by iguana on Saturday 26th March 13:48
I'd suggest your 964 is either down on power or you are not pedaling it hard enough, with a couple of exceptions most of the 993RS I've seen around are not driven to the max of their capabilities on track anyway, thus a decent driver in even just a chipped 964 should have no probs.
>> Edited by iguana on Saturday 26th March 13:48
964RS or 993RS to some extent depends on your budget as the 964 will generally be the cheaper car and the advantages of the 993 are not IMHO, worth the extra.
Track and road are to some extent mutually exclusive so you'll have to decide where your priorities lie.
For track I would pick the 964 since it will, on a like for like basis, always be the lighter car. Mild tuning means power outputs are broadly similar.
For road I'd pick neither.
TBH if you're going to modify the hell out of either you're probably better off starting with a stock C2.
Track and road are to some extent mutually exclusive so you'll have to decide where your priorities lie.
For track I would pick the 964 since it will, on a like for like basis, always be the lighter car. Mild tuning means power outputs are broadly similar.
For road I'd pick neither.
TBH if you're going to modify the hell out of either you're probably better off starting with a stock C2.
If you're after a track only car and money is a consideration then it has to be 964RS.
As money becomes less and less of a consideration and desire to enjoy driving on normal roads increases you move more and more towards the 993RS. It depends where you are on this 'graph'.
I do 8000 miles a year in my 993RS driving to and from track and weekly commute London to Norfolk. I would not want to do this in a 964RS!
As money becomes less and less of a consideration and desire to enjoy driving on normal roads increases you move more and more towards the 993RS. It depends where you are on this 'graph'.
I do 8000 miles a year in my 993RS driving to and from track and weekly commute London to Norfolk. I would not want to do this in a 964RS!
Can but agree with you Roy.
I was privileged to drive a friend's 993 RS a while ago and while instantly feeling at home in it, I could have happily chucked in overnight bags and Mrs Melv, tooled off to a French chateau for a menu gastronomique and done a track day the next day and then driven home. I'de even let her drive it.....
Nice car!! but I do love my Cup Car
mel
I was privileged to drive a friend's 993 RS a while ago and while instantly feeling at home in it, I could have happily chucked in overnight bags and Mrs Melv, tooled off to a French chateau for a menu gastronomique and done a track day the next day and then driven home. I'de even let her drive it.....
Nice car!! but I do love my Cup Car
mel
Gentlemen. Many thanks for all your input, I am inevitably still considering the options. Colin I actually think 325 would be more than enough. That said in the next couple of trackdays I'm going to get some instruction to see how much I'm not making of the car first. Thanks esp to PhilRS, great advice Phillipe and were it not for time beign againsts us I'd've gone your route....and your observations and recommendations spot on, and to Charles for the connection!
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