Double Cab Pick Ups - HMRC
Discussion
I'm the director, installer and tea boy in a wood burning stove company and I'm looking at my vehicle options. I'm currently "making do" with a POS 4x4 but I have Golf R Estate and a Seat Leon diesel as our two 'family cars'. I've yet to drive one, but I can't help but think the new L200 Barbarian Double Cab would suit my business needs and double up as a reasonable second family car. The Golf would see the majority of our private mileage but the L200 can chip in here and there in place of the Leon.
I'm fully aware of the BIK payable and VAT rules relating to say 80/20 business/private split. I guess my first question is, what is the series 5 L200 like? I read a thread on here from 2014 where pick ups where heavily criticised for drive, performance, economy and comfort. However, the reviews suggest the game is changing with the new breed.
My main question relates to the payload calculation. The L200 Barb is 1,045kg for tax purposes and fitting a hard top is taken to be 45kg. I'd need a hardtop to keep my tools in the back (probably on shelves). However, I'd also need a towbar and roof racking for ladders. I'm not 100% certain, but I think these things would count against the payload calculation, take me below 1,000kg and convert the vehicle from a van to a car in the eyes of HMRC. I'd then be unable to claim VAT back, would pay loads more BIK and the whole thing would be pointless.
Is my interpretation correct? If so, how likely are HMRC to actually enforce it? Surely it would be madness for an inspector to look at a fully logo'd up business vehicle with ladders pretty much permanently on the roof and a trailer hooked up most days and say, "ah, sorry bud that's a car...cough up". If they would be that brutal it surely makes a mockery of the whole system. I see loads of these vehicles driving around with sweet-FA in the back and you know that a) it's a VAT free business purchase and b) being used 90% of the time for private use? In my case it would be heavily the other way and the accessories being added would be purely to meet the needs of the business.
I'm fully aware of the BIK payable and VAT rules relating to say 80/20 business/private split. I guess my first question is, what is the series 5 L200 like? I read a thread on here from 2014 where pick ups where heavily criticised for drive, performance, economy and comfort. However, the reviews suggest the game is changing with the new breed.
My main question relates to the payload calculation. The L200 Barb is 1,045kg for tax purposes and fitting a hard top is taken to be 45kg. I'd need a hardtop to keep my tools in the back (probably on shelves). However, I'd also need a towbar and roof racking for ladders. I'm not 100% certain, but I think these things would count against the payload calculation, take me below 1,000kg and convert the vehicle from a van to a car in the eyes of HMRC. I'd then be unable to claim VAT back, would pay loads more BIK and the whole thing would be pointless.
Is my interpretation correct? If so, how likely are HMRC to actually enforce it? Surely it would be madness for an inspector to look at a fully logo'd up business vehicle with ladders pretty much permanently on the roof and a trailer hooked up most days and say, "ah, sorry bud that's a car...cough up". If they would be that brutal it surely makes a mockery of the whole system. I see loads of these vehicles driving around with sweet-FA in the back and you know that a) it's a VAT free business purchase and b) being used 90% of the time for private use? In my case it would be heavily the other way and the accessories being added would be purely to meet the needs of the business.
For business 90% of the time. I'd get a locking ladder rack and keep my ladders on it and tools in it nearly all of the time. The 10% is only when we need the use of two cars as nearly all our private mileage (long journeys, trips, shopping, hooning, etc) would be done in our leased Golf R Estate. I'd also want it logo'd up to do some advertising when I'm going to and from jobs, etc.
In same boat. Watch the payload as it may change the registration document. By as long as that is commercial, it is probably unlikely challenged. Check some of the other models for weight variations. With the Ford Ranger I prefer the Limited anyway, but it's fine with a roll top cover; however the wildtrak (de riguer for tradies around here is not).
Buffalo said:
In same boat. Watch the payload as it may change the registration document. By as long as that is commercial, it is probably unlikely challenged. Check some of the other models for weight variations. With the Ford Ranger I prefer the Limited anyway, but it's fine with a roll top cover; however the wildtrak (de riguer for tradies around here is not).
I'll admit I was initially drawn to the Wildtrack but the fact that a 45kg hardtop allowance would defo take it below the 1,000kg seemed too risky? By the sounds of it, the trick is to add roof bars and towbar after the fact (i.e. after it's been registered and you've driven it away). Is that what you are suggesting?I have been running an Isuzu Rodeo for the past 6 years, the first 4 as a company pickup/lease.
Served its purpose very well and exactly as you have described your need. IIRC BIK I paid was £600 for the year. Never an issue with Accountant or HMRC
I am only reason I am not changing it for something similar is I need more space.
If you are really worried, get the vehicle completely stock from your dealer, at which point it will be documented as a commecial vehicle then add your own canopy and racking which may push you over the 1T limit, but how are you to know or how is it documented?
I would highly recommend a bed-slide, climbing in and out of a limited space endlessly is a pain in the arse (from experience of a previous truck) Absolute godsend.
HTH.
V
PS, If anyone wants a 6 1/2 year old Double Cab Pick up, it will be for sale next week, as my van has arrived.
Served its purpose very well and exactly as you have described your need. IIRC BIK I paid was £600 for the year. Never an issue with Accountant or HMRC
I am only reason I am not changing it for something similar is I need more space.
If you are really worried, get the vehicle completely stock from your dealer, at which point it will be documented as a commecial vehicle then add your own canopy and racking which may push you over the 1T limit, but how are you to know or how is it documented?
I would highly recommend a bed-slide, climbing in and out of a limited space endlessly is a pain in the arse (from experience of a previous truck) Absolute godsend.
HTH.
V
PS, If anyone wants a 6 1/2 year old Double Cab Pick up, it will be for sale next week, as my van has arrived.
Edited by VEX on Sunday 12th March 09:11
Eric Mc said:
Because the law requires you to be honest?
True, but it's also the case that the law is a catch all and can't account for all circumstances. I'd bet the idea behind the 1T thing was to ensure that people didn't add fancy accessories like plush lined canopies, decorative bull bars, exhaust stacks, big springs and wheels and spot lights to effectively convert the vehicle into a luxury accessory item and diminish its ability to preform duties as a commercial vehicle.Surely, you would agree it's illogical that I would be penalised for adding a ladder racking system and a towbar, both of which are vital to allow me and the vehicle to perform our respective business duties?
Applying logic to the interpretation of law can be a waste of time, to be honest.
HMRC expect people to self declare their tax situations. Many people, of course, are economical with the truth but HMRC does not have the resources to check on every situation. As a result, many people are technically in breach of all sorts of tax rules but just never get found out.
HMRC expect people to self declare their tax situations. Many people, of course, are economical with the truth but HMRC does not have the resources to check on every situation. As a result, many people are technically in breach of all sorts of tax rules but just never get found out.
I like to regard myself as a fairly honest and productive member of society. I think it's safe to say I could sleep at night if the towbar on my vehicle and roof rack were their to allow me to perform my duties.
From the feedback so far, it seems the crucial step is making sure the vehicle is registered on the V5 as a LCV, which means going canny on factory/dealer fit options.
From the feedback so far, it seems the crucial step is making sure the vehicle is registered on the V5 as a LCV, which means going canny on factory/dealer fit options.
Splats said:
Buffalo said:
In same boat. Watch the payload as it may change the registration document. By as long as that is commercial, it is probably unlikely challenged. Check some of the other models for weight variations. With the Ford Ranger I prefer the Limited anyway, but it's fine with a roll top cover; however the wildtrak (de riguer for tradies around here is not).
I'll admit I was initially drawn to the Wildtrack but the fact that a 45kg hardtop allowance would defo take it below the 1,000kg seemed too risky? By the sounds of it, the trick is to add roof bars and towbar after the fact (i.e. after it's been registered and you've driven it away). Is that what you are suggesting?That said, in the case of the ranger, the Limited model has a slightly higher net weight capacity. The only real difference in the wildtrak are a few cosmetics. Some of which can be chosen as options anyway. So for me - the Limited model is a better vehicle and is on my shortlist whereas the wildtrak is not.
I drove a S5 L200 Barbarian today and it's the first time I've driven a vehicle of this nature. The interior was really impressive and very close to car like. In many respects it drove similar(ish) to an SUV but two things stood out. The first is that, while the performance was pretty keen and the gearshift relatively quick and snappy, it hated being rushed. You could physically bash through the gears quickly but it was like the throttle/engine mapping couldn't cope and made the re-introduction of power jerky and horrible. I remember driving beat up old vans 20 years ago and it literally took a full second to physically shift gears. The L200 can physically do it as quick as you can row your arm but electronically it seems to demand the same slow methodical approach. I don't know why, but that really got on my nerves and shattered the "car like" illusion.
Most of the commercial feeling aspects of the car I adapted to and mentally tuned out fairly quickly. However, there is no getting away from the ride. It was bouncy on mixed driving conditions without a load in it and I can imagine it would be quite wearing over a long journey. I assume it would settle down with weight. I'm interested to know from those that have driven both; how does the ride in an unladen pickup compare to an unladen transit/master/et al? The alternative here isn't an SUV or car, it's a full blown van. If a van would be just as jiggly and uncomfortable then the pick-up makes a stronger case for itself.
I've also just discovered a new form of businesses lease financing where there is a balloon payment at the end and no deposit. Seems complicated with a lot of unknowns. Does anyone have a link to a good resource that explains the pro's/con's of this form of finance? Anyone have experience of it?
Most of the commercial feeling aspects of the car I adapted to and mentally tuned out fairly quickly. However, there is no getting away from the ride. It was bouncy on mixed driving conditions without a load in it and I can imagine it would be quite wearing over a long journey. I assume it would settle down with weight. I'm interested to know from those that have driven both; how does the ride in an unladen pickup compare to an unladen transit/master/et al? The alternative here isn't an SUV or car, it's a full blown van. If a van would be just as jiggly and uncomfortable then the pick-up makes a stronger case for itself.
I've also just discovered a new form of businesses lease financing where there is a balloon payment at the end and no deposit. Seems complicated with a lot of unknowns. Does anyone have a link to a good resource that explains the pro's/con's of this form of finance? Anyone have experience of it?
I have an Isuzu D Max, been using it in a similar situation to what you describe for almost 5 years now. It goes well enough for what it is (one way or another, I'd probably get myself into trouble if it had any more grunt). It has a twin turbo setup (one small, one big), so it makes plenty of low down torque whilst retaining a moderately reasonable power band (it's happiest between 1200 and 3000rpm though). Yes, it's bouncy with no weight in the back, but I have at least 100kg of kit in there at all times, and it rides much more happily then.
However, the Isuzu has an issue with the DPF regen - instead of a 5th injector in the exhaust, it just tips a loads of extra fuel through the engine to regenerate. This leads to fuel diluting the engine oil (the level actually rises up the dipstick between services). Obviously this can't be doing the engine much good, and as mine is just coming to the end of it's warranty, I'm looking to change it for a new one (probably not another Isuzu).
The current Navara has independent rear suspension, so I'm keen to give that one a try. It also has a reasonably pokey 2.3l engine, whereas the face lifted D Max that's about to hit the UK market only has a 1.9l. I think that's going to be underpowered, even if it is more refined. The old VW Amarok had a 2l engine, but the new one has a 3l engine, which kind of suggests 2l isn't enough to be comfortable in something this size.
Only thing that concerns me is the reliability of the Navara, earlier generations had some reliability issues, but I'm hoping they've improved with the current one. Same for the L200, when I was looking at pickups last time, they for being unreliable, but maybe the new one is better? The Hilux was generally regarded as the best all rounder, but they seem to have dropped the 3l, and now only offer 150hp 2.4l.
However, the Isuzu has an issue with the DPF regen - instead of a 5th injector in the exhaust, it just tips a loads of extra fuel through the engine to regenerate. This leads to fuel diluting the engine oil (the level actually rises up the dipstick between services). Obviously this can't be doing the engine much good, and as mine is just coming to the end of it's warranty, I'm looking to change it for a new one (probably not another Isuzu).
The current Navara has independent rear suspension, so I'm keen to give that one a try. It also has a reasonably pokey 2.3l engine, whereas the face lifted D Max that's about to hit the UK market only has a 1.9l. I think that's going to be underpowered, even if it is more refined. The old VW Amarok had a 2l engine, but the new one has a 3l engine, which kind of suggests 2l isn't enough to be comfortable in something this size.
Only thing that concerns me is the reliability of the Navara, earlier generations had some reliability issues, but I'm hoping they've improved with the current one. Same for the L200, when I was looking at pickups last time, they for being unreliable, but maybe the new one is better? The Hilux was generally regarded as the best all rounder, but they seem to have dropped the 3l, and now only offer 150hp 2.4l.
Interesting post and good to read that circa 100kg settles things down. I'd have a canopy, which is about 50kg off the bat and then some shelving/storage solutions complete with various permanently stored tools, equipment and consumable materials. Oh, then I'd have racking and ladders on it most of the time. Actually, I'd probably have well north of 100kg on it most days.
I have been working on the assumption that I'd fire a tuning box on it but having driven one, it probably doesn't need it. Granted it was unladen, but it was plenty pokey and way faster than your average van. I'd at least drive a Navara for the reason you mention; the coil spring suspension. However, at the moment I'd probably lean towards the L200 for a number of reasons (weight, 4WD system, combined towing and payload figure, fuel economy, performance (0-62 in 10.2s isn't too shabby) and equipment levels in Barbarian trim)).
The really hard thing is weighing up how much I/we would use it for personal family type stuff. If it's once in a blue moon then it makes much more sense to just get a big ol' van. However, if there are viable circumstances where I'd be happy to leave a 360bhp Golf R at home and enjoy the "free" fuel in the truck then it might make sense.
I have been working on the assumption that I'd fire a tuning box on it but having driven one, it probably doesn't need it. Granted it was unladen, but it was plenty pokey and way faster than your average van. I'd at least drive a Navara for the reason you mention; the coil spring suspension. However, at the moment I'd probably lean towards the L200 for a number of reasons (weight, 4WD system, combined towing and payload figure, fuel economy, performance (0-62 in 10.2s isn't too shabby) and equipment levels in Barbarian trim)).
The really hard thing is weighing up how much I/we would use it for personal family type stuff. If it's once in a blue moon then it makes much more sense to just get a big ol' van. However, if there are viable circumstances where I'd be happy to leave a 360bhp Golf R at home and enjoy the "free" fuel in the truck then it might make sense.
Splats said:
Interesting post and good to read that circa 100kg settles things down. I'd have a canopy, which is about 50kg off the bat and then some shelving/storage solutions complete with various permanently stored tools, equipment and consumable materials. Oh, then I'd have racking and ladders on it most of the time. Actually, I'd probably have well north of 100kg on it most days.
I have been working on the assumption that I'd fire a tuning box on it but having driven one, it probably doesn't need it. Granted it was unladen, but it was plenty pokey and way faster than your average van. I'd at least drive a Navara for the reason you mention; the coil spring suspension. However, at the moment I'd probably lean towards the L200 for a number of reasons (weight, 4WD system, combined towing and payload figure, fuel economy, performance (0-62 in 10.2s isn't too shabby) and equipment levels in Barbarian trim)).
The really hard thing is weighing up how much I/we would use it for personal family type stuff. If it's once in a blue moon then it makes much more sense to just get a big ol' van. However, if there are viable circumstances where I'd be happy to leave a 360bhp Golf R at home and enjoy the "free" fuel in the truck then it might make sense.
I've had a Series 5 Warrior for a nearly a year, and I love it. I've got a canopy as standard from the dealer + low liner (a few kilos) + towbar. The HMRC have no issue with the designation of it, the towbar doesn't count towards payload, so as long as it's over 1000kg including the canopy, you're good to go. Don't forget, your tools, ladders etc ARE your payload, the only thing detracting from it is the canopy.I have been working on the assumption that I'd fire a tuning box on it but having driven one, it probably doesn't need it. Granted it was unladen, but it was plenty pokey and way faster than your average van. I'd at least drive a Navara for the reason you mention; the coil spring suspension. However, at the moment I'd probably lean towards the L200 for a number of reasons (weight, 4WD system, combined towing and payload figure, fuel economy, performance (0-62 in 10.2s isn't too shabby) and equipment levels in Barbarian trim)).
The really hard thing is weighing up how much I/we would use it for personal family type stuff. If it's once in a blue moon then it makes much more sense to just get a big ol' van. However, if there are viable circumstances where I'd be happy to leave a 360bhp Golf R at home and enjoy the "free" fuel in the truck then it might make sense.
I'd agree with the power delivery though, 1st is really too short for anything other than pulling away, however I've found when pushing on it's great, 4th gear covers most situations from 20mph to ,ahem, the NSL....
The ride I've not noticed to be too bad, having the canopy helps, but it does notice large potholes.
I tows superbly though, a fully laden cattle trailer can be pullede with ease, and don't forget, although the L200 can only tow 3100kg, compared to the Ranger's 3500kg, it can pull the full 3100kg with a 990kg payload which the Ranger can't. Also the L200 is < 2040kg unladen which means it's classified as a Dual Purpose vehicle and therefore subject to car speed limits of 60/70/70 (NSL/DC/M-way) compared to a Wildtrak which is 50/60/70.
Hope this helps
Edited by Mammasaid on Wednesday 15th March 09:45
RoadRailer and Mammasays, two great posts... thanks.
I'd plan to test drive the Navara before I make a decision, although I'm 90% sure that it would be an L200 or Navara I'd go for if I decide a double cab is the way to go. What are we talking (cost per 1000 miles) in terms of Adblue consumption by the way? The Adblue is just one of a few things that concern me with the NP300, including:
- No rain sensing wipers (wtf!)
- Adblue cost/hassle
- Likely worse real work economy than L200
- 4WD system can't just be left on in dry conditions
However:
+ Surround view camera in Tekna spec
+ A little better looking IMHO
+ Slightly bigger load area
+ Decent 7sp Auto (I think I'd reluctantly go manual in L200)
+ A few better safety systems (autonomous braking).
+ Potentially a little cheaper (better deals to be had I think but I've not looked in great detail yet).
I'd be interested to here from tradespeople that run a Double Cab who would traditionally have a transit style van. In particular, is the relative lack of space for tools and equipment a tolerable compromise or a royal PITA. Do you get around lack of space by occasionally pulling a trailer and, again, is this overly frustrating compared to just throwing everything in a big van? A guy I spoke to yesterday made the point that if I have a job in a built up city street with limited parking then parking with a trailer is going to be a pain.
I'd plan to test drive the Navara before I make a decision, although I'm 90% sure that it would be an L200 or Navara I'd go for if I decide a double cab is the way to go. What are we talking (cost per 1000 miles) in terms of Adblue consumption by the way? The Adblue is just one of a few things that concern me with the NP300, including:
- No rain sensing wipers (wtf!)
- Adblue cost/hassle
- Likely worse real work economy than L200
- 4WD system can't just be left on in dry conditions
However:
+ Surround view camera in Tekna spec
+ A little better looking IMHO
+ Slightly bigger load area
+ Decent 7sp Auto (I think I'd reluctantly go manual in L200)
+ A few better safety systems (autonomous braking).
+ Potentially a little cheaper (better deals to be had I think but I've not looked in great detail yet).
I'd be interested to here from tradespeople that run a Double Cab who would traditionally have a transit style van. In particular, is the relative lack of space for tools and equipment a tolerable compromise or a royal PITA. Do you get around lack of space by occasionally pulling a trailer and, again, is this overly frustrating compared to just throwing everything in a big van? A guy I spoke to yesterday made the point that if I have a job in a built up city street with limited parking then parking with a trailer is going to be a pain.
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