What to do? Thinking about a change… CSL to Z4MR? Or a manua
Discussion
After nearly 3 years of ownership I’m starting to get itchy feet. I’m not sure if the itchiness is to get something else or to actually sell the CSL but I need a change. Or a motorbike, maybe a motorbike. Mrs.Chapppers doesn’t like that one.
There are two ideas currently, the first is to sell the CSL and put half the money in the bank (funds split between Santander and err… the Ducati Investment Scheme) and with the other half buy a nice black Z4MR, some black wheels and a carbon airbox. Maybe swap my APs onto it? Roof down, that noise, I think it could be a good combo. The OH currently has a 2.2 Z3 and I do like it, even if it’s a bit soft and slow. She’s currently thinking of swapping to a GT86, so we’d lose the convertible out of the family. I realise there’s quite a bit of hate for convertibles from some so I’ll bear that in mind for the replies.
Has anyone here owned a Z4M Roadster? Are they good fun? Reliable? Last iteration of the S54 of course. How do they compare to the coupe?
The second, crazier, more controversial idea is to visit my favourite BMW specialist and have him convert the CSL, horror of horrors, to a manual gearbox. It seems not to have been done before, I do quite like a manual and my favourite car I’ve ever owned doesn’t have one.
My only hold-ups are the obvious “you’ll make the car worth nothing” argument… not so sure about that one, it’ll still say the right things on the log book, quite a few people have expressed their desire for this combo over the years and my car ticked over 131,000 miles on Saturday anyway so it’s already at the bottom of the pile.
My other concern is that, and I don’t actually have experience of this, the standard E46 manual gearbox isn’t actually that good? OK the box is strong but the shift feel has been described by many (for all manual BMWs actually) as “rubbery”… are there some simple upgrades that can be done to improve this, shorten the throw, tighten it all up? A colleague has also just removed his CDV and I must admit I didn’t know the E46 had one. This very thing used to massively get on my tits when I owned my E36 328i, I always seemed to shift faster than the car would let me. I’d hate to get all this work done and find out I hated what I’d done to it.
So…flame suit on? Thoughts anyone? Everyone?
TL;DR help me help me the voices in my head are winning
There are two ideas currently, the first is to sell the CSL and put half the money in the bank (funds split between Santander and err… the Ducati Investment Scheme) and with the other half buy a nice black Z4MR, some black wheels and a carbon airbox. Maybe swap my APs onto it? Roof down, that noise, I think it could be a good combo. The OH currently has a 2.2 Z3 and I do like it, even if it’s a bit soft and slow. She’s currently thinking of swapping to a GT86, so we’d lose the convertible out of the family. I realise there’s quite a bit of hate for convertibles from some so I’ll bear that in mind for the replies.
Has anyone here owned a Z4M Roadster? Are they good fun? Reliable? Last iteration of the S54 of course. How do they compare to the coupe?
The second, crazier, more controversial idea is to visit my favourite BMW specialist and have him convert the CSL, horror of horrors, to a manual gearbox. It seems not to have been done before, I do quite like a manual and my favourite car I’ve ever owned doesn’t have one.
My only hold-ups are the obvious “you’ll make the car worth nothing” argument… not so sure about that one, it’ll still say the right things on the log book, quite a few people have expressed their desire for this combo over the years and my car ticked over 131,000 miles on Saturday anyway so it’s already at the bottom of the pile.
My other concern is that, and I don’t actually have experience of this, the standard E46 manual gearbox isn’t actually that good? OK the box is strong but the shift feel has been described by many (for all manual BMWs actually) as “rubbery”… are there some simple upgrades that can be done to improve this, shorten the throw, tighten it all up? A colleague has also just removed his CDV and I must admit I didn’t know the E46 had one. This very thing used to massively get on my tits when I owned my E36 328i, I always seemed to shift faster than the car would let me. I’d hate to get all this work done and find out I hated what I’d done to it.
So…flame suit on? Thoughts anyone? Everyone?
TL;DR help me help me the voices in my head are winning
Not much help, but I think both ideas are great!
For the reasons you allude to I think a manual conversion of a CSL such as yours would not 'ruin' it's value, and if it were mine I'd be thinking of doing the exact same. I had a manual CS and the gearshift was OK, actually not bad at all. You could look at something like a UUC evo3 short shift kit, which I hear a lot of good things about.
Conversely I have a CSL airbox in my Z4MC and it makes a lot of sense to me to have that setup in the roadster. I've driven my friend's roadster (albeit with an eventuri filter not CSL) a few times now and it's a good laugh. The chassis is very stiff out of the box in the roadster (I think it's actually stiffer than the e46 coupe shell) and there's very little difference between how mine and his handle. One slightly noticeable difference is the quicker rack of the coupe.
Hope that helps a bit, I can see merits to both options. Happy choosing!
ETA; the general consensus seems to be that the CDV delete doesn't seem to do so much on these M transmissions as it does on regular models. I didn't really notice much difference on my Z, and the fact I can't remember the effect on the M3 probably means that it didn't do a lot! Take it out, you can always put it back in again if so inclined.
or
For the reasons you allude to I think a manual conversion of a CSL such as yours would not 'ruin' it's value, and if it were mine I'd be thinking of doing the exact same. I had a manual CS and the gearshift was OK, actually not bad at all. You could look at something like a UUC evo3 short shift kit, which I hear a lot of good things about.
Conversely I have a CSL airbox in my Z4MC and it makes a lot of sense to me to have that setup in the roadster. I've driven my friend's roadster (albeit with an eventuri filter not CSL) a few times now and it's a good laugh. The chassis is very stiff out of the box in the roadster (I think it's actually stiffer than the e46 coupe shell) and there's very little difference between how mine and his handle. One slightly noticeable difference is the quicker rack of the coupe.
Hope that helps a bit, I can see merits to both options. Happy choosing!
ETA; the general consensus seems to be that the CDV delete doesn't seem to do so much on these M transmissions as it does on regular models. I didn't really notice much difference on my Z, and the fact I can't remember the effect on the M3 probably means that it didn't do a lot! Take it out, you can always put it back in again if so inclined.
or
Edited by MOTK on Monday 3rd April 18:06
I have a Z4MR and love it. I find the gearbox absolutely fine. I'm amazed by all the supposed negative comments re BMW boxes - I far prefer them to Porsches. And the E46 M3 gearbox is fine - One off the reasons I never considered a CSL when they were affordable was the SMG> However, if I were you I'd flog it and get a Z4M for the road AND an E46 M3 track car... and still put a big chunk in the bank.
Forgot to say - my Z4M has been super reliable. People will tell you they are not as stiff as a coupe but people who have driven both will tell you that there is absolutely no difference. The R is still super stiff scoring 14,500Nm/degree in BMW’s torsional stiffness test - far stiffer than many tin tops. If anything it rides slightly better than the Coupe, being slightly softer sprung. I love mine.
Go for it. Had my Z4MR for over 5 years now. Done a few track days and 40k+ in my hands, now on 55k not mist a beat. Still puts a huge smile on my face and unlike the M3, so much faster than people are expecting when they meet one. Who needs a bike. 
Edited by BuzyG on Monday 3rd April 23:25
I had a Z4MR, only sold it due to the arrival of kids. I managed to keep my R1 though and can utterly recommend owning a superbike at some point in your life (if you've not already). Mine's geared down a lot since the 100mph 1st gear was a bit tall, but it makes it feel monstrous. Good fun.
The Z4MR handles differently to the M3. You get more of a sense of the chassis loading and unloading as you turn into corners. It also feels a bit more knife edged, like it builds more corner speed and then is a little more sudden to let go. I felt that it was more understeery than my M3 with standard geo, although my M3 had been set up to get as close to CSL settings as possible with a little toe-out at the front. The gearbox in my Z4 was as notchy or more-so than in my M3. If I'd kept the car longer, I'd have tried stiffer gearbox/engine mounts since getting 2nd gear when accelerating hard from T-junctions was more difficult than it was in a straight line. That didn't really detract from the car though.
The exhaust note is far more present in the Z4 and much deeper too. You don't get the rasp that the M3 has, but you get a deeper note instead.
If it was a choice between CSL and no bike or Z4MR and bike, I'd take the latter every time.
The Z4MR handles differently to the M3. You get more of a sense of the chassis loading and unloading as you turn into corners. It also feels a bit more knife edged, like it builds more corner speed and then is a little more sudden to let go. I felt that it was more understeery than my M3 with standard geo, although my M3 had been set up to get as close to CSL settings as possible with a little toe-out at the front. The gearbox in my Z4 was as notchy or more-so than in my M3. If I'd kept the car longer, I'd have tried stiffer gearbox/engine mounts since getting 2nd gear when accelerating hard from T-junctions was more difficult than it was in a straight line. That didn't really detract from the car though.
The exhaust note is far more present in the Z4 and much deeper too. You don't get the rasp that the M3 has, but you get a deeper note instead.
If it was a choice between CSL and no bike or Z4MR and bike, I'd take the latter every time.
Wow Chappers converting a CSL to a manual. I like you prefer manual over paddle shift. To the naysayers I do not care how much faster a machine can change gear compared to a human. For me it is about involvement and interaction and not pushing buttons/paddles.
I keep toying with getting rid of the CSL but keep it because it is iconic, special and it is difficult to find anything to replace it with that is not covered in electrical aids. A GT3 RS would be nice but still a long way away from CSL prices (and mine only has 41,000 on the clock).
I look forward to seeing the end result.
Pip
I keep toying with getting rid of the CSL but keep it because it is iconic, special and it is difficult to find anything to replace it with that is not covered in electrical aids. A GT3 RS would be nice but still a long way away from CSL prices (and mine only has 41,000 on the clock).
I look forward to seeing the end result.
Pip
Thanks for the replies all, some good info and opinions. I drove a Z4MR on Monday and I must say I did like it. The shift was...tricky but I got the hang of it quite quickly, it seems to be all about clutch timing. It's definitely not a fast box, perhaps a CDV delete, Royal Purple and SSK would help but it's never going to be an MX5 riflebolt 
I realise the Z4M has a different gearbox but I assume the shift feel is about the same.
However, with a number of these comments I'm also feeling brave and fancy doing something a bit special since hitting 130k. Who knows maybe it'll increase the saleability! Watch this space.
My concern with an SSK is that I'd really like to keep it looking OEM, and not to have a weird stubby gearnob. Is that possible? I'm way more bothered about feel than I am throw length.
I realise the Z4M has a different gearbox but I assume the shift feel is about the same.However, with a number of these comments I'm also feeling brave and fancy doing something a bit special since hitting 130k. Who knows maybe it'll increase the saleability! Watch this space.
My concern with an SSK is that I'd really like to keep it looking OEM, and not to have a weird stubby gearnob. Is that possible? I'm way more bothered about feel than I am throw length.
A manual CSL would be great, and as for it's value if you did it, I really can't see it being hurt that badly. I think we all know what would be the relative price of manual/smg csls now had bmw made such a thing.
As for the SSK, if you get the uuc or Rogue ones then yes you can keep the original shift knob and it will look completely oem. I just ordered the UUC for my car and the oem look was a big factor. From what I understand it introduces far better feel to the gearbox not necessarily a huge change in the shift length. The gearboxes between and M3 and Z4M are different as you say, from recollection though there's not a huge amount of difference in feel between the two.
As for the SSK, if you get the uuc or Rogue ones then yes you can keep the original shift knob and it will look completely oem. I just ordered the UUC for my car and the oem look was a big factor. From what I understand it introduces far better feel to the gearbox not necessarily a huge change in the shift length. The gearboxes between and M3 and Z4M are different as you say, from recollection though there's not a huge amount of difference in feel between the two.
Here's a little thought from a debate with a colleague on the matter... It is unfortunately about resale, which I totally shouldn't be worried about because it's my car etc. etc.
Anyway... A 131,000 mile CSL sits in a bit of a niche by itself. Whoever buys it next (whenever that might be) is going to be, like me, someone looking for that "CSL experience" but perhaps doesn't have the ever increasing amounts of cash needed to buy into the low mileage collectors examples, and someone who missed out/was too young the first time round...
The car as it is, despite being a bit of a trigger's broom at this stage, a full, out of the factory "CSL experience".
Swapping to a manual, despite the fact that the SMG itself isn't a CSL-only part, SMG-only was a "csl thing" because it was faster round the 'ring that way. So in essence if I change that I'm creating an even smaller niche out of a car that already sits in a very specific niche?
Or, does the reverse happen? Does a manual gearbox open it up to more potential buyers as those who would still quite like a CSL but hate SMG might consider my suddenly consider my high mileage example when they otherwise wouldn't have...
It's not to say it won't be hard to sell either way, but it's going to be even harder to sell with a manual box in it. I suppose worse comes to worse I could change it back, even with the hole in the tunnel it's a lot more original than ones that have had the entire boot floor replaced. I guess I just have to be honest with myself about what I'm doing and how whatever value it may hold is not easily accessible cash if times get hard for whatever reason in the future.
If I do this work I'm absolutely doing it for my own enjoyment, not for someone else but I'm also not a millionaire so can't kid myself that I can simply write off (around)£40k of assets in a car for an experiment.
Anyway... A 131,000 mile CSL sits in a bit of a niche by itself. Whoever buys it next (whenever that might be) is going to be, like me, someone looking for that "CSL experience" but perhaps doesn't have the ever increasing amounts of cash needed to buy into the low mileage collectors examples, and someone who missed out/was too young the first time round...
The car as it is, despite being a bit of a trigger's broom at this stage, a full, out of the factory "CSL experience".
Swapping to a manual, despite the fact that the SMG itself isn't a CSL-only part, SMG-only was a "csl thing" because it was faster round the 'ring that way. So in essence if I change that I'm creating an even smaller niche out of a car that already sits in a very specific niche?
Or, does the reverse happen? Does a manual gearbox open it up to more potential buyers as those who would still quite like a CSL but hate SMG might consider my suddenly consider my high mileage example when they otherwise wouldn't have...
It's not to say it won't be hard to sell either way, but it's going to be even harder to sell with a manual box in it. I suppose worse comes to worse I could change it back, even with the hole in the tunnel it's a lot more original than ones that have had the entire boot floor replaced. I guess I just have to be honest with myself about what I'm doing and how whatever value it may hold is not easily accessible cash if times get hard for whatever reason in the future.
If I do this work I'm absolutely doing it for my own enjoyment, not for someone else but I'm also not a millionaire so can't kid myself that I can simply write off (around)£40k of assets in a car for an experiment.
I am going to come at this from a different angle and say if you fancy a bike, get a bike. Nothing else will come close for fun. I own a Z4MC and used to own a Z4MR. I got a bike last year and have had way more fun miles on that then I have the zed.
It's easier to enjoy the road on a bike and you don't need a complete missile litre bike (I have a street triple with 'only' 100hp) to outrun just about anything with 4 wheels on the usual traffic light grand prix but what I really enjoy is the ease of overtakes and the real craft that goes with riding, it takes genuine focus and practice so you learn a new skill along the way. Do all the training you can and show you are taking safety seriously, my wife has accepted it is my new hobby!
For me it's been a real eye opener and I would gladly sell the zed if I had to choose between that and a bike. I've actually done more miles this year on my bike than in the car and I have found it has chilled out my driving when I'm with the family (I know and accept progress will be slow) and really boosted my road sense and awareness out there.
I think changing the box on the M3 will be a bit of a waste of money unless you are literally never going to get bored of that car. I'd say that's the conservative option. Try something new.
It's easier to enjoy the road on a bike and you don't need a complete missile litre bike (I have a street triple with 'only' 100hp) to outrun just about anything with 4 wheels on the usual traffic light grand prix but what I really enjoy is the ease of overtakes and the real craft that goes with riding, it takes genuine focus and practice so you learn a new skill along the way. Do all the training you can and show you are taking safety seriously, my wife has accepted it is my new hobby!
For me it's been a real eye opener and I would gladly sell the zed if I had to choose between that and a bike. I've actually done more miles this year on my bike than in the car and I have found it has chilled out my driving when I'm with the family (I know and accept progress will be slow) and really boosted my road sense and awareness out there.
I think changing the box on the M3 will be a bit of a waste of money unless you are literally never going to get bored of that car. I'd say that's the conservative option. Try something new.
k it.I doubt it will hurt the value much and you'll be able to sell on it fairly easily I reckon.
I say do it. There is a chap who converts the bellhousings on ebay/M3Cutters and the coding for the ECU is far more accessible than it has been previously.
But I've never been that impressed with a manual E46 M3. An MX-5 or even dare I say it a Ford changes gears far better and faster, head over heels I'd say. I'd like to try a CAI or AKG one however.
I say do it
. There is a chap who converts the bellhousings on ebay/M3Cutters and the coding for the ECU is far more accessible than it has been previously.But I've never been that impressed with a manual E46 M3. An MX-5 or even dare I say it a Ford changes gears far better and faster, head over heels I'd say. I'd like to try a CAI or AKG one however
.This is my take on a manual csl
You don't care about the cars future value & you are doing it for yourself. Go for it
Prospective csl buyer. Sorry I want a csl
Future prospective buyers who want a manual. How much!!? I can buy a standard manual E46 M3, spend a few pounds on some mods & get a better handling/faster car.
You don't care about the cars future value & you are doing it for yourself. Go for it
Prospective csl buyer. Sorry I want a csl
Future prospective buyers who want a manual. How much!!? I can buy a standard manual E46 M3, spend a few pounds on some mods & get a better handling/faster car.
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