Theseus's Paradox and the Porsche 911

[M7arthy]

Forgive the lack of structure, as i am not a writer and I'm about to undertake a unusual thought experiment. The Ship of Theseus paradox, is a thought experiment which fundamentally addresses the question of whether an abject that has had all its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object. In Greek Mythology the ship of Theseus is a ship that has returned from Crete with thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians over time, over they years they took away the old rotting planks and replaced them with new timber, the ship eventually became an example of among philosophers, for the logical questions of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending it was not the same, which bring me to my question…..Generation after generation of 911s have been defined by their unique driving dynamics, the current generation is perhaps one of the biggest departures from the 911 philosophy ever, so are current Porsche 911 (991) still 911's ?? They certainly look like 911's but with the introduction of EPAS, Rear Axle Steering (mitigating the rear engined feel), PDK and big sticky tires, has the car become a 911 in name only ?

[randlemarcus]

Daft question.

A series of cars will evolve over time, but the pace of change is subjective, and depends on your start point. If you define lack of RWS as THE characteristic, then it is no longer a 911.

If, on the other hand, you have a broader view, and regard the model designation as critical, then it is by definition a 911.

[Slippydiff]

^ Wot hee sed

[Mad March Taffy]

Otherwise known as 'Trigger's Broom' !

[996TT02]

Any vehicle model is that model in name only - because a name is all it is.

And the model manufacturer gets to decide the name.

I see very little in common between Escort Mk1 and Mk6 - but what would you call the Mk6 if not an Escort?

What you mean is do the latest (and many inbetweens) 911s offer anything different to the earliest 911s and I guess you already know the answer to that. Which you prefer is entirely personal.

[SRT Hellcat]

This is a subject that crops up occasionally on the early 911S registry forum. Many are sticklers for using new old stock parts during the restoration of a pre 1974 911. (the long hoods). These parts are hard to find and even second hand can cost a lot of money. For arguments sake would you spend £2500 on original headlights or buy the current ones available from Porsche for £450 but they have the sidelight in them which is incorrect. Would you spend £9K on a set of 4.5 x 15 Fuchs for a 67S or stick a set of flat 6's on it for £1500. Shell restoration is a mute point. If the shell is as rotten as an old pair replacing all the panels has it not lost its original provenance or are you just saving a piece of automotive history. When an S was £15K you would throw it in the skip. At £250K you would replace all the panels. Porsche get to decide what form the current 911 is. Our choice is whether or not to purchase one.

[anonymous-user]

SRT Hellcat said:

Porsche get to decide what form the current 911 is. Our choice is whether or not to purchase one.

Is a good point. But equally, Porsche operate as a business to sell things that people want. If people don't purchase them, and the model is considered a failure, due to it being less '911ey' (for example), then who makes the decision?

You could think back to Ferry Porsche's original ideal: "I looked around for a lightweight sports car, but I couldn't find one, so I decided to make one myself" when the 356 was designed. Ergo, the 911 follows that ideal, or does it, now? I think the 911 has probably - and I'm sure most people will agree - become a bit of a GT car with only the stripped out models harking back to the sporting ideal.

It's an interesting discussion.

[SRT Hellcat]

As daft as it sounds. Do you know what put me off the 997 when I first drove one. The ignition switch. It is just a means to tell the engine to crank until it fires. Just flick it and it winds on its own. I enjoy connectivity. When you climb into your 911. The precise amount of force required to close the door in one hit. Weighted differently between 993, 993GT2, 2.4S, 3.2. Knowledge you have to glean. You will in an instant know that the door catch is not adjusted correctly. The noise is not clean. Inserting the key into the ignition switch. With my 2.4S I let the pump run for 15 to 20 seconds before I crank the engine. A couple of seconds to fill the mfi and tickle the throttle as it cranks. Then it breaths life. Hand throttle on max. No choke or fuel enrichment device on these. Let it idle and bring up the rpm on its own. It is for me such an important part of the 911 experience. A wonderful 911 that feels so small and light. But the Factory Recaro Sports seats are st. No wonder my mate who owned a 2.2S back in the day. Took them out and threw them in the bin. I would do the same but the £'s make it impossible today

[Dr Jekyll]

The same dispute happens in aviation circles.

Make two new identical replacement parts for (say) a Spitfire, choose one at random to fit to your Spitfire and it's still the same aircraft. Continue until every single part has been replaced and it's still the same aircraft. Then get your stock of unused parts and build another aircraft and it isn't even a real Spitfire, while the first one is not only still a real Spitfire but still the same Spitfire, of historical significance because it is still the very one that was flown by Group Captain so and so on the such and such mission.

[Dr Jekyll]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Everything except the manufacturers data plate.