Definitive solution for second track wheels
Discussion
Dear All,
David asked about where I’d got to with wheels for my car at Rockingham. I am now finalized. There are three options that I know of which will actually result in some real wheels being fitted to your cars.
Everything else so far has drawn a blank. Here is the summary of the info known to me.
Firstly
You can get some HRE wheels. No lighter or stronger than stock and have to come a long way from Japan. Not certain of delivered costs. These seem mainly to be for guys who want to visually upgrade their cars. To learn more see;
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=150544&f=26&h=0&hw=HRE
Dan got a quote from them;
Standard Silver Centre with Polished Lip. 18x8.5" front = £745.70 each + VAT.
18x10" Rear = £777.64 each + VAT. High Polish is £70.00 per wheel + VAT (as seen on website) All the above include clearcoat where applicable, bolts, locks a choice of
HRE centre cap. And Delivery within the UK to you. As they take 4 weeks to build, we estimate a delivery time of 6-8 weeks
www.hrewheels.com/welcome/
Secondly
you could get FIKSE to make a set for you. These are aluminium race wheels – slightly lighter by 1-2 kg per corner than the stock wheels, almost certainly stronger and made as pukka race wheels. The range options are limited. No need for a bulk by, can be ordered set by set, a variety of finishes available. Need to ship from the USA.
www.fikse.com/profil.html
James in the USA has posted this on Pistonheads
They are ready to make wheels for anyone who wants them. The key points are below to keep you from having to read too much. All wheels must be Profil series. Any profil wheel is available. Front 18x8.5's will be 9.3KG Rear 18x10's will be 9.5KG
Whole set is $3850 USD or $2002 GBP.
European delivery is no problem, expect to pay $150-300 USD.
4 optional finishes are available for $90 USD per wheel.
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=160979&f=26&h=0&hw=Fikse
Remember both the above will run the risk of import duty being slapped on them as they come through Customs & Excise. could be as much as 10-15% extra.
Thirdly
- and what I am going for - you can have a set of Dymag wheels. I've done a deal with them if we can order 3 or more sets in total we can get these for £480+VAT per corner, i.e. £1,920 +VAT each set. I am starting off with the first two sets. These are pukka race magnesium wheels. They are available in a variety of colours. They will weigh approx 8 Kg each so a significant weight saving over stock (4 kg on GTO wheels and 5Kg on 3,3R and M400 wheels). This weight saving will result in a noticeable difference on the track, it’s the equivalent of saving 40-50kg off the weight of the chassis. They are road legal and meet the BSAU50 standard and their 5 spoke design is TUV approved. Dymag say they will tolerate usual road use (i.e the odd pothole) and if they get scratched and affected by corrosion they can be refurbed for £50 per wheel. They normaly expect this roughly every 3rd year for road used wheels. The wheels they will be basing it on is basically the wheel that Astons use so we know they can take a far heavier car. See it on their web site;
www.dymag.com/index2_e.html
More detail
www.dymag.com/products_cars_standard.html
I believe this to be the obvious best price/performance/availability compromise. They are the cheapest, they are UK based and they are the lightest. Cosmeticaly its up to you but as a second set for the track it’s a no-brainer. So I'm now inviting you lot to join in. Delivery should be 6 weeks-ish.
You can order them directly but if you keep me informed I can track the numbers and make sure we get that (or even a bigger) discount. E-mail me if you want me to add your name to the bulk order.
Regards
Paul C
David asked about where I’d got to with wheels for my car at Rockingham. I am now finalized. There are three options that I know of which will actually result in some real wheels being fitted to your cars.
Everything else so far has drawn a blank. Here is the summary of the info known to me.
Firstly
You can get some HRE wheels. No lighter or stronger than stock and have to come a long way from Japan. Not certain of delivered costs. These seem mainly to be for guys who want to visually upgrade their cars. To learn more see;
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=150544&f=26&h=0&hw=HRE
Dan got a quote from them;
Standard Silver Centre with Polished Lip. 18x8.5" front = £745.70 each + VAT.
18x10" Rear = £777.64 each + VAT. High Polish is £70.00 per wheel + VAT (as seen on website) All the above include clearcoat where applicable, bolts, locks a choice of
HRE centre cap. And Delivery within the UK to you. As they take 4 weeks to build, we estimate a delivery time of 6-8 weeks
www.hrewheels.com/welcome/
Secondly
you could get FIKSE to make a set for you. These are aluminium race wheels – slightly lighter by 1-2 kg per corner than the stock wheels, almost certainly stronger and made as pukka race wheels. The range options are limited. No need for a bulk by, can be ordered set by set, a variety of finishes available. Need to ship from the USA.
www.fikse.com/profil.html
James in the USA has posted this on Pistonheads
They are ready to make wheels for anyone who wants them. The key points are below to keep you from having to read too much. All wheels must be Profil series. Any profil wheel is available. Front 18x8.5's will be 9.3KG Rear 18x10's will be 9.5KG
Whole set is $3850 USD or $2002 GBP.
European delivery is no problem, expect to pay $150-300 USD.
4 optional finishes are available for $90 USD per wheel.
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=160979&f=26&h=0&hw=Fikse
Remember both the above will run the risk of import duty being slapped on them as they come through Customs & Excise. could be as much as 10-15% extra.
Thirdly
- and what I am going for - you can have a set of Dymag wheels. I've done a deal with them if we can order 3 or more sets in total we can get these for £480+VAT per corner, i.e. £1,920 +VAT each set. I am starting off with the first two sets. These are pukka race magnesium wheels. They are available in a variety of colours. They will weigh approx 8 Kg each so a significant weight saving over stock (4 kg on GTO wheels and 5Kg on 3,3R and M400 wheels). This weight saving will result in a noticeable difference on the track, it’s the equivalent of saving 40-50kg off the weight of the chassis. They are road legal and meet the BSAU50 standard and their 5 spoke design is TUV approved. Dymag say they will tolerate usual road use (i.e the odd pothole) and if they get scratched and affected by corrosion they can be refurbed for £50 per wheel. They normaly expect this roughly every 3rd year for road used wheels. The wheels they will be basing it on is basically the wheel that Astons use so we know they can take a far heavier car. See it on their web site;
www.dymag.com/index2_e.html
More detail
www.dymag.com/products_cars_standard.html
I believe this to be the obvious best price/performance/availability compromise. They are the cheapest, they are UK based and they are the lightest. Cosmeticaly its up to you but as a second set for the track it’s a no-brainer. So I'm now inviting you lot to join in. Delivery should be 6 weeks-ish.
You can order them directly but if you keep me informed I can track the numbers and make sure we get that (or even a bigger) discount. E-mail me if you want me to add your name to the bulk order.
Regards
Paul C
AMG Merc said:
Paul comprehensive info. as always, thanks and will await your photos.
Better also point out that the factory warranty will be invalidated on under one year old cars (as specified by Simon Hucknall in an earlier thread)?!
They can't invalidate the warranty for non affected parts. i.e. if your new wheel breaks and you crash tough luck. If the engine blows up however, then unless its because of the wheel (!?!?!?) then thats still covered.
Paul hope you don't mind a few directly relevant questions as I'm considering going in on the buy.
Have you assured that brake caliper clearance is ok on these wheels?
Are they gravity cast, or negative pressure cast?
Also is the 50 quid a corner repair, a case of getting wonder wheels out, or is that the dymag factory?
If they get scratched do they need immediate repair to prevent oxidation damage?
Do they need x-raying every year (this one could be complete tosh, but it has been mentioned on another forum)?
Can they supply individual wheels if an owner was to break one and need a repair? This was my main concern with the Fikse, as ordering from abroad really complicates repair & replacement.
>> Edited by DanH on Wednesday 30th March 22:23
DanH said:
Have you assured that brake caliper clearance is ok on these wheels?
Yes, the final agreement is that I ship a set of wheels to Dymag so they do the final clearance check themselves. If they don't fit it's their problem.
DanH said:
Are they gravity cast, or negative pressure cast?
Don't know - I'll ask
DanH said:
Also is the 50 quid a corner repair, a case of getting wonder wheels out, or is that the dymag factory?
Its the factory - see their FAQs
DanH said:
If they get scratched do they need immediate repair to prevent oxidation damage?
Don't know - will ask - presumably some touch up would suffice. I think real issue is salty water.
DanH said:
Do they need x-raying every year (this one could be complete tosh, but it has been mentioned on another forum)?
I think tosh - unless you are a pro racer.
DanH said:
Can they supply individual wheels if an owner was to break one and need a repair?
I assume so but again I'll ask. I think once the first set have been setup doing the odd repair is easy.
Regards
Paul C
paulcundy said:
Thirdly [snip] ... Dymag wheels [snip] ... They will weigh approx 8 Kg each so a significant weight saving over stock (4 kg on GTO wheels and 5Kg on 3,3R and M400 wheels). This weight saving will result in a noticeable difference on the track, it’s the equivalent of saving 40-50kg off the weight of the chassis.
Paul, I hope it's not a daft question but how do you get to the equivalent 50Kg reduction?
chillidog said:
paulcundy said:
Thirdly [snip] ... Dymag wheels [snip] ... They will weigh approx 8 Kg each so a significant weight saving over stock (4 kg on GTO wheels and 5Kg on 3,3R and M400 wheels). This weight saving will result in a noticeable difference on the track, it’s the equivalent of saving 40-50kg off the weight of the chassis.
Paul, I hope it's not a daft question but how do you get to the equivalent 50Kg reduction?
Its unsprung vs sprung weight (i.e. whether its suspended on the suspension or in the wheels/hub/discs). A lighter wheel should ride bumps quicker and also less mass in them should improve braking/acceleration. How much any of this is really detectable I don't know, nor do I know whether suspension needs adjusting to take this into account.
Paul thanks for looking into this.
>> Edited by DanH on Wednesday 30th March 23:08
chillidog said:
Paul, I hope it's not a daft question but how do you get to the equivalent 50Kg reduction?
As a general rule each kg saved off the unsprung weight (wheels, hubs, calipers etc) is equal to 3x the weight saving from the sprung weight of the car (i.e drivetrain and chassis).
So saving 3 kg each side at the front plus 4-5 kg each side at the rear x 3 = 40-50kg (approx).
Wheel weight saving also improves acceleration and braking performance due to the reduction in the rotational mass of the wheels that have to be accelerated or decelerated.
I'm told that as little as 0.5 kg saving per wheel is noticeable to the driver.
Regards
PauL C
DanH said:
A lighter wheel should ride bumps quicker
How much any of this is really detectable I don't know
Apparently for the same reasons one thing you'll notice is that its easier to lock up a wheel - there's more braking effort working against the grip and less needed to stop the wheel spinning round, so you'll need to adjust your braking slightly.
paulcundy said:
Paul, I hope it's not a daft question but how do you get to the equivalent 50Kg reduction?
As a general rule each kg saved off the unsprung weight (wheels, hubs, calipers etc) is equal to 3x the weight saving from the sprung weight of the car (i.e drivetrain and chassis).
So saving 3 kg each side at the front plus 4-5 kg each side at the rear x 3 = 40-50kg (approx).
Wheel weight saving also improves acceleration and braking performance due to the reduction in the rotational mass of the wheels that have to be accelerated or decelerated.
I'm told that as little as 0.5 kg saving per wheel is noticeable to the driver.
Regards
PauL C
I've heard that rotating weight (the wheels, tires, rotor, etc) is even more important than just unsprung weight.
gotapex said:
I've heard that rotating weight (the wheels, tires, rotor, etc) is even more important than just unsprung weight.
You are correct! Reducing unsprung weight allows the suspension to do its job more accurately as it has to control its own inertia less and it can react faster. Reducing rotating weight has greater benefit as you are accelerating the part not only forward but radially. Think of the flywheel, if you take 5KG off of it the car will accelerate noticable faster. If you make just the car 5KG lighter you can't tell the difference. Think of all 4 wheels and tires as flywheels because that is exactly how physics thinks of them! The correlation I am used to hearing is 1 pound rotating is the equivalent of 6 pounds static. IF that is about right a 10KG loss on the wheels would feel like 60KG or ~130 pounds. It would feel like the car became ~5% lighter. This is why Formula/Cart/Indy cars do not have proper flywheels.
jmg944t said:
I've heard that rotating weight (the wheels, tires, rotor, etc) is even more important than just unsprung weight.
You are correct! Reducing unsprung weight allows the suspension to do its job more accurately as it has to control its own inertia less and it can react faster. Reducing rotating weight has greater benefit as you are accelerating the part not only forward but radially. Think of the flywheel, if you take 5KG off of it the car will accelerate noticable faster. If you make just the car 5KG lighter you can't tell the difference. Think of all 4 wheels and tires as flywheels because that is exactly how physics thinks of them! The correlation I am used to hearing is 1 pound rotating is the equivalent of 6 pounds static. IF that is about right a 10KG loss on the wheels would feel like 60KG or ~130 pounds. It would feel like the car became ~5% lighter. This is why Formula/Cart/Indy cars do not have proper flywheels.
Sheesh, 5 kg off of the flywheel is quite a bit.
My flywheel is 9 lbs (4.1 kg), with the stock one measuring 18.2 lbs (8.3 kg), a 9.2 lb (4.2 kg) reduction. The thing practically revs like a motorcycle.
Anyone go lighter?
gotapex said:
Sheesh, 5 kg off of the flywheel is quite a bit.
My flywheel is 9 lbs (4.1 kg), with the stock one measuring 18.2 lbs (8.3 kg), a 9.2 lb (4.2 kg) reduction. The thing practically revs like a motorcycle.
Anyone go lighter?
5Kg would be excessive in the case of a Noble driven on the street I just used it as an example. There are really light flywheels available (5.5 pounds is the lightest I know of) for other cars but you would wear out clutchs quickly on the street.
[quote=paulcundy]Dear All,
Firstly
You can get some HRE wheels. No lighter or stronger than stock .........
Paul,
Just to get the facts correct re: the HRE wheels (for those of us in the US mostly). You might have missed one of my recent posts that I did weigh the OEM wheels that I removed from my car. The stock 3R/M400 wheels weigh 28lbs each for the front and 30 lbs. each for the rear (with center caps and valve stems installed). The HRE 540R wheels that I have are 22lbs each for the front and 23 lbs. each for the rear. So there is a significant weight reduction with HRE wheels as well (In kg's that's 2.72 kg's for each front wheel and 3.18 kg's for each rear wheel). And the style I have is one of the heavier HRE wheels. So, they are not just a cosmetic item. The Fikse wheels are about the same weight, and are also a very good wheel. Both the HRE and Fikse wheels are probably better priced and easier to obtain by US owners than they would be for UK owners.
P.S. I am not on commission by HRE. I just happen to be very happy with them and I was very surprised and pleased to discover the differnce in weight between them and the OEM wheels. Now I am anxious to drive it again to see what the difference is in terms of acceleration and handling (I had to put it away for the winter right after I got the wheels).
Hope that helps.
Craig
>> Edited by caccobra on Thursday 31st March 15:33
Firstly
You can get some HRE wheels. No lighter or stronger than stock .........
Paul,
Just to get the facts correct re: the HRE wheels (for those of us in the US mostly). You might have missed one of my recent posts that I did weigh the OEM wheels that I removed from my car. The stock 3R/M400 wheels weigh 28lbs each for the front and 30 lbs. each for the rear (with center caps and valve stems installed). The HRE 540R wheels that I have are 22lbs each for the front and 23 lbs. each for the rear. So there is a significant weight reduction with HRE wheels as well (In kg's that's 2.72 kg's for each front wheel and 3.18 kg's for each rear wheel). And the style I have is one of the heavier HRE wheels. So, they are not just a cosmetic item. The Fikse wheels are about the same weight, and are also a very good wheel. Both the HRE and Fikse wheels are probably better priced and easier to obtain by US owners than they would be for UK owners.
P.S. I am not on commission by HRE. I just happen to be very happy with them and I was very surprised and pleased to discover the differnce in weight between them and the OEM wheels. Now I am anxious to drive it again to see what the difference is in terms of acceleration and handling (I had to put it away for the winter right after I got the wheels).
Hope that helps.
Craig
>> Edited by caccobra on Thursday 31st March 15:33
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