Discussion
Just when I think I know what my upgrades are going to be, then I start looking at BV heads from the usual companies and I'm getting a little confused.
Looking at v8 Developments site, they show their stage 4 heads in both a mk1 and 2 option., but the seemingly 'better' head is actually cheaper?
Then looking at v8 tuner there's the CNC ported heads.
Can somebody please give me a idiots guide?
I've a 450 chim which I'm planning on keeping n/a. Fitting a gems, flowing and matching inlet manifold, stealth/similar cam, 44mm trumpets and larger plenum, possibly twin carbon.
Is there anything out there overkill, or is it simply, bigger the better?
Looking at v8 Developments site, they show their stage 4 heads in both a mk1 and 2 option., but the seemingly 'better' head is actually cheaper?
Then looking at v8 tuner there's the CNC ported heads.
Can somebody please give me a idiots guide?
I've a 450 chim which I'm planning on keeping n/a. Fitting a gems, flowing and matching inlet manifold, stealth/similar cam, 44mm trumpets and larger plenum, possibly twin carbon.
Is there anything out there overkill, or is it simply, bigger the better?
Pretty much bigger is better as the ports on the heads are the biggest restriction in holding back the power assuming you have a good bottom end with plenty of compression.
Deck the block is always favourable on the 450 I feel . Mine was done and it's a roaring sun of a gun now.
If your 450 is a late one it should have big valves but very little porting, your heads revworked, ground in valves etc and flow matched to you inlet manifold should yield well into 310-320 hp with your other mods,
In essence 450 heads are like a stage three level head, not quite as good maybe but close so porting your heads might yield similar power for less cost.
I think some of the earlier 450 engines did have head work before going out to customers, the later ones with various tweaks that Rover had taken onboard are reputed to flow better with the big valves fitted as standard and Rover themselves making a better job of matching the ports etc, if that's true is another thing!
What year is your engine.
Deck the block is always favourable on the 450 I feel . Mine was done and it's a roaring sun of a gun now.
If your 450 is a late one it should have big valves but very little porting, your heads revworked, ground in valves etc and flow matched to you inlet manifold should yield well into 310-320 hp with your other mods,
In essence 450 heads are like a stage three level head, not quite as good maybe but close so porting your heads might yield similar power for less cost.
I think some of the earlier 450 engines did have head work before going out to customers, the later ones with various tweaks that Rover had taken onboard are reputed to flow better with the big valves fitted as standard and Rover themselves making a better job of matching the ports etc, if that's true is another thing!
What year is your engine.
You can spend thousands gaining very little or even nothing if you aren't careful. But at least you are asking questions.
Following the "ooh, that sounds like a good idea" principle, or, even worse, the "oooh that LOOKS nice" principle is a very quick way to do this. I fell into that trap myself.
Research your engine very carefully, as Classic says, find out what it already has and doesn't have, find out where the restrictions are and tackle those first. I spent a frustrating couple of years with my 5 litre engine, never understanding why it was resolutely stuck at around 299.9 bhp, yet it pulled like a train and was a joy to drive. I finally worked out that the stealth cam suited my driving (style and useage), but that I was wasting my money adding on so many expensive mods without tackling my main restriction - the stage 3 heads and their small valves.
Also, before changing the cam, decide what you want a cam to achieve for you. In other words, discuss what you are doing with the car, how you like it to drive etc, before buying.
Have fun!
Following the "ooh, that sounds like a good idea" principle, or, even worse, the "oooh that LOOKS nice" principle is a very quick way to do this. I fell into that trap myself.
Research your engine very carefully, as Classic says, find out what it already has and doesn't have, find out where the restrictions are and tackle those first. I spent a frustrating couple of years with my 5 litre engine, never understanding why it was resolutely stuck at around 299.9 bhp, yet it pulled like a train and was a joy to drive. I finally worked out that the stealth cam suited my driving (style and useage), but that I was wasting my money adding on so many expensive mods without tackling my main restriction - the stage 3 heads and their small valves.
Also, before changing the cam, decide what you want a cam to achieve for you. In other words, discuss what you are doing with the car, how you like it to drive etc, before buying.
Have fun!
Thanks guys.
I've 1999 450 that's used as a fast road car at the moment with the intention of doing 2-3 track days a year and maybe a hill climb thrown in, so I'm looking for plenty torque , but with good rev ability and I think the stealth cam should be good for this. So it's back to the head upgrade.
Now, I now most of us at some time have fallen for that 'I need that' purchasing bug, after all, we're all car lovers and want the 'best', but I have managed to learn over the years that what appears to be 'best' on paper, may in reality, not achieve what's required or at the very least ending up unnecessaly costing extra money.
If for one minute I knew the best way to go was the biggest rover heads possible, then I save the extra and buy'um, but I'm just being cautious.
Is the only way of knowing the valve sizes taking off the heads to check? If they are the factory BV, is it just a case of have them ported and decked do you think? I know we can get very BV''s from the tuners, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be worth upgrading from a factory BV's for my purposes then.
If my heads are the smaller valves, would the best thing to do is go BIG with the valves - very BV's?
I've 1999 450 that's used as a fast road car at the moment with the intention of doing 2-3 track days a year and maybe a hill climb thrown in, so I'm looking for plenty torque , but with good rev ability and I think the stealth cam should be good for this. So it's back to the head upgrade.
Now, I now most of us at some time have fallen for that 'I need that' purchasing bug, after all, we're all car lovers and want the 'best', but I have managed to learn over the years that what appears to be 'best' on paper, may in reality, not achieve what's required or at the very least ending up unnecessaly costing extra money.
If for one minute I knew the best way to go was the biggest rover heads possible, then I save the extra and buy'um, but I'm just being cautious.
Is the only way of knowing the valve sizes taking off the heads to check? If they are the factory BV, is it just a case of have them ported and decked do you think? I know we can get very BV''s from the tuners, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be worth upgrading from a factory BV's for my purposes then.
If my heads are the smaller valves, would the best thing to do is go BIG with the valves - very BV's?
Cannot help but agree regarding the stealth cam - I had one myself and the car really pulled nicely.
A Griff owner of my acquaintance has just put Wildcat heads on his car, and I am awaiting an update on what power and torque it is making. It seems to me to be all about maximising the amount of air that can be drawn into the cylinders.
You made a list of normally aspirated upgrades at the start of this thread, and said very clearly that you wanted to stay normally aspirated. A clear perspective, and I had a lot of fun with my car following that same path. And spent a lot of money too.
I will be completely up front and say that i have just emigrated to the dark side, and have installed an Eann Whalley turbo in my car. I looked at the possible upgrades last autumn, including staying NA, going SC or T, or even going LS. I was at the "clean sheet of paper" stage, as I had just broken my beloved 5 litre engine and was facing a £3000 rebuild, plus probably a new cam etc, just to stand still. I am no engineer, so have had to pay reliable people to do all the work and "getting it right" for me.
In the end the LS was too much (around £24,000 installed), and I could see I could spend £000s going to bigger valved heads etc and possibly gaining 30 bhp. So I had a low compression RR 4.6 engine built, with a stock RR cam and heads, and added the turbo and an Emerald ECU. The Emerald is going into the car this week, and it should make between 400 and 450 bhp and around 500 ft lbs torque (the 5 litre was 315 bhp, 350 ft lbs). I will have rolling road graphs by a week on Friday.
So, can I suggest you price up your list planned NA mods, all of which look very valid to me, and then see how it stacks up against a turbo or supercharger install. Bear in mind that the Phazed NA Chimaera 5.5, with stage 4 heads and a double plenum makes 380 bhp and 450 torques, so you won't get as high as that, I think you will do well to get to 350 bhp.
As a comparison, my turbo was £3,700 including oil cooler and intercooler, drive in/drive out, and the ECU upgrade a further £2800 including bigger injectors and 3 settings mapping. While the ECU is not strictly essential, is something you would consider anyway, whether you are staying NA or not. I am having to shell out for the injectors and a bigger fuel pump (about £350 installed) purely because of the extra power.
You are welcome to compare your car with mine, side by side performance if it would help...450 NA vs 450 Turbo.
A Griff owner of my acquaintance has just put Wildcat heads on his car, and I am awaiting an update on what power and torque it is making. It seems to me to be all about maximising the amount of air that can be drawn into the cylinders.
You made a list of normally aspirated upgrades at the start of this thread, and said very clearly that you wanted to stay normally aspirated. A clear perspective, and I had a lot of fun with my car following that same path. And spent a lot of money too.
I will be completely up front and say that i have just emigrated to the dark side, and have installed an Eann Whalley turbo in my car. I looked at the possible upgrades last autumn, including staying NA, going SC or T, or even going LS. I was at the "clean sheet of paper" stage, as I had just broken my beloved 5 litre engine and was facing a £3000 rebuild, plus probably a new cam etc, just to stand still. I am no engineer, so have had to pay reliable people to do all the work and "getting it right" for me.
In the end the LS was too much (around £24,000 installed), and I could see I could spend £000s going to bigger valved heads etc and possibly gaining 30 bhp. So I had a low compression RR 4.6 engine built, with a stock RR cam and heads, and added the turbo and an Emerald ECU. The Emerald is going into the car this week, and it should make between 400 and 450 bhp and around 500 ft lbs torque (the 5 litre was 315 bhp, 350 ft lbs). I will have rolling road graphs by a week on Friday.
So, can I suggest you price up your list planned NA mods, all of which look very valid to me, and then see how it stacks up against a turbo or supercharger install. Bear in mind that the Phazed NA Chimaera 5.5, with stage 4 heads and a double plenum makes 380 bhp and 450 torques, so you won't get as high as that, I think you will do well to get to 350 bhp.
As a comparison, my turbo was £3,700 including oil cooler and intercooler, drive in/drive out, and the ECU upgrade a further £2800 including bigger injectors and 3 settings mapping. While the ECU is not strictly essential, is something you would consider anyway, whether you are staying NA or not. I am having to shell out for the injectors and a bigger fuel pump (about £350 installed) purely because of the extra power.
You are welcome to compare your car with mine, side by side performance if it would help...450 NA vs 450 Turbo.
Give V8D a call I found them very helpful when I did similar earlier this year, I was told stage 4 heads wouldn't work on my 4lt so I went for new spec stage 3 heads ( Worrior) mc1 cam 45mm inlet manifold, 45mm trumpet base and 72mm plenum. I couldn't have the stealth cam as I didn't have pocketed pistons. The work has totally transformed the car, I had it remapped at Joolz where the car made 284bhp, the main thing is the car is now so much smoother to drive.
The cost was around £3500 fitted.
If you are hoping for more than 320/350 hp I would think about fi.
The cost was around £3500 fitted.
If you are hoping for more than 320/350 hp I would think about fi.
Thanks for the replies guys.
If my car made 300/320bhp I'd be over the moon, buts it's more about the feel of the engine, releasing it's character!
I've referred to my mods and planned mods to mack my car a kind of v2.1 of the original, so the sane just improved.
I work in the car trade and have had the good fortune to drive 400-500 bhp + cars, and as much as they're mega impressive, I've always preferred the cars that required a bit more effort to get the performance out of them, as it's only really then do you get to play at revving the car, working on the gear change, listening to the engine and everything else that goes with the less ultimate performance cars.
And being honest, if I didn't have my chim then I'd probably be running around in something more classic car like.
The turbo idea is very appealing though and not 'completely' ruled out. I have been looking at Eanns kits and wondering how they'd work with a Gems system.
If my car made 300/320bhp I'd be over the moon, buts it's more about the feel of the engine, releasing it's character!
I've referred to my mods and planned mods to mack my car a kind of v2.1 of the original, so the sane just improved.
I work in the car trade and have had the good fortune to drive 400-500 bhp + cars, and as much as they're mega impressive, I've always preferred the cars that required a bit more effort to get the performance out of them, as it's only really then do you get to play at revving the car, working on the gear change, listening to the engine and everything else that goes with the less ultimate performance cars.
And being honest, if I didn't have my chim then I'd probably be running around in something more classic car like.
The turbo idea is very appealing though and not 'completely' ruled out. I have been looking at Eanns kits and wondering how they'd work with a Gems system.
motul1974 said:
Thanks for the replies guys.
If my car made 300/320bhp I'd be over the moon, buts it's more about the feel of the engine, releasing it's character!
I've referred to my mods and planned mods to mack my car a kind of v2.1 of the original, so the sane just improved.
I work in the car trade and have had the good fortune to drive 400-500 bhp + cars, and as much as they're mega impressive, I've always preferred the cars that required a bit more effort to get the performance out of them, as it's only really then do you get to play at revving the car, working on the gear change, listening to the engine and everything else that goes with the less ultimate performance cars.
And being honest, if I didn't have my chim then I'd probably be running around in something more classic car like.
The turbo idea is very appealing though and not 'completely' ruled out. I have been looking at Eanns kits and wondering how they'd work with a Gems system.
Very well I would imagine - all the turbo needs is more certainty regarding fuelling/air mix right across the rev range, given the much higher bhp range.If my car made 300/320bhp I'd be over the moon, buts it's more about the feel of the engine, releasing it's character!
I've referred to my mods and planned mods to mack my car a kind of v2.1 of the original, so the sane just improved.
I work in the car trade and have had the good fortune to drive 400-500 bhp + cars, and as much as they're mega impressive, I've always preferred the cars that required a bit more effort to get the performance out of them, as it's only really then do you get to play at revving the car, working on the gear change, listening to the engine and everything else that goes with the less ultimate performance cars.
And being honest, if I didn't have my chim then I'd probably be running around in something more classic car like.
The turbo idea is very appealing though and not 'completely' ruled out. I have been looking at Eanns kits and wondering how they'd work with a Gems system.
I specifically want more straight line speed for track days, otherwise i would have stayed with my car as it was. There is little scope to use large amounts of power on the public road. I utterly fail to see the point of many of the 500 bhp+ purely road cars that are around these days (Audi RS6 et al). Just seems like bragging rights combined with a dose of willy waving to me.
motul1974 said:
If my car made 300/320bhp I'd be over the moon, buts it's more about the feel of the engine, releasing it's character!
I have had a few mods done to my engine recently along the lines of what you originally posted (see my car in my garage section of profile) and am just about to get Dom and his team to install an MBE ignition system to complete the process. I do have factory BV heads on my car according to Dom and the guy who fitted my camshaft so won't be going down the route of changing these as the outlay might not get me a suitable return on the £'s spent in the BHP column. However, as with what you are looking to achieve, I want a car that is fun to drive, revs freely and offers a strong mid range power band torque wise as opposed to outright BHP. I'd be expecting to get between 280-300 BHP in my final set up with the MBE installed and will post up the RR graphs once Dom has mapped the car.As mentioned by QBee and others you can go after serious BHP and torque figures with these cars with FI installations and these are well proven now but I don't use the car often enough on a track to give this any thought and don't rate my ability to keep the car on the tarmac on the public highway these days
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