Sage 50 - How easy/hard is it.....

[h8tax]

.... if you are not a qualified accountant?

Just to give some context, t/o of business approaching £1m , thinking about taking book-keeping (as opposed to accounting) back in house. The business has a mix of inputs, but nothing particularly complex - the main thing is we have some sales which are vat free, and some which are not (agricultural basis) - the current book-keepers tell me that Sage is not particularly good at handling mixed vat rates?

My question is simply that given appropriate training, is it possible for someone who is not a trained accountant, to process invoices, calculate the vat returns, run the payroll etc.

Just to stress that we still intend to retain "proper" accountants to audit, calculate corp tax etc and look after the directors interests etc.

[Eric Mc]

You don't need to be a qualified accountant but I always think you should be comfortable with traditional double entry book-keeping principles.

Accounts and book-keepers tend to like Sage 50. Non accountants and book-keepers less so.

Have you looked at Quickbooks?

[Hoofy]

Yeah, what Eric said.

It's fairly straightforward to use but be prepared for some double entry action.

[w1bbles]

As a non-accountant who has used Sage 50, Sage One and Xero in 3 different businesses for book keeping, VAT returns and payroll I'd recommend Xero any day of the week. I trained my wife to run it with very little handholding for our electrical contracting and consultancy business. As a plus it also makes its API available for other developers so you can use third party integrated apps. We use ServiceM8 for brilliant estimates and people scheduling. My other business has now ditched Sage One.

[Eric Mc]

How does Xero fare when controlling your debtors and creditors?

Does it provide your accountant with sufficient quality year end balances that allows them to prepare statutory accounts that are compliant with accounting standards and Company Law and Corporation Tax?

Can they trust the veracity of the balances it produces?

I have heard mixed reports on Xero. By and large, praise comes from those who use it on a day to day basis.
Less generous comments come from those who have to turn the figures into recognisably compliant accounts,.

[w1bbles]

Eric Mc said:

How does Xero fare when controlling your debtors and creditors?

Does it provide your accountant with sufficient quality year end balances that allows them to prepare statutory accounts that are compliant with accounting standards and Company Law and Corporation Tax?

Can they trust the veracity of the balances it produces?

I have heard mixed reports on Xero. By and large, praise comes from those who use it on a day to day basis.
Less generous comments come from those who have to turn the figures into recognisably compliant accounts,.

On point 1, shedloads better than Sage IMHO. Particularly on the debtors front.

On the compliant accounts front, it's a double entry book keeping system. You can create whatever reports you need from any of the GL accounts.

I'm a simple soul and not an accountant but I can't see how it could be less able than Sage when it comes to extracting year end balances.

Sage has been problematic for me a number of times in Line 50 and Sage One incarnations - Xero not.

[Doofus]

Eric Mc said:

How does Xero fare when controlling your debtors and creditors?

Does it provide your accountant with sufficient quality year end balances that allows them to prepare statutory accounts that are compliant with accounting standards and Company Law and Corporation Tax?

Can they trust the veracity of the balances it produces?

I have heard mixed reports on Xero. By and large, praise comes from those who use it on a day to day basis.
Less generous comments come from those who have to turn the figures into recognisably compliant accounts,.

I used to be an accountant many years ago. In other businesses, I used Sage for 20-odd years. I recently bought a business running Xero, so I've stuck with it.

I have to say, it's actually pretty good. I'm happy with the quality and detail of day books, TBs and so on. It's not hugely advanced in terms of analysis or reporting (or at least, not as advanced as I'd like), but for a non-accountant, it works pretty well, and really needs no understanding of double-entry.

If you try to post a journal, it warns you that this should be left to somebody who knows what they're doing, which makes me chuckle.

It doesn't manage audit trails very well, and you can amend entries (invoices, journals etc) after you've posted them. You can delete sales and purchase invoices, and there's no audit trail.

Because I have a finance head, I wouldn't choose it, but I would suggest that it's a good tool. The lack of audit trails would concern me if I had more than one employee making entries, but I don't. I have an accounts clerk who does the bookkeeping, and basic journals, and I oversee it.

[Eric Mc]

Thanks for clarifying.

It's just that I've heard mixed reports.

The one example I saw of Xero in action, I was not impressed at all - but that was more down to the user than the system, I suspect.

Have you had statutory accounts prepared using the Xero figures?
In other words, has your accountant reviewed what Xero has produced?

[Doofus]

Eric Mc said:

Thanks for clarifying.

It's just that I've heard mixed reports.

The one example I saw of Xero in action, I was not impressed at all - but that was more down to the user than the system, I suspect.

Have you had statutory accounts prepared using the Xero figures?
In other words, has your accountant reviewed what Xero has produced?

I do my own stats. And I've used Xero, yes. One of the things I like is that as it's cloud-based, I can give my accountants a login, and they can play around to their hearts' content. We scan and attach all invoices too, so they can be viewed online. We used to scan journal vouchers, but I got bored of that.

As I said the lack of audit trail might make accountants jumpy, but I'm happy with what it does, and I'm happy to stand by the accounts (as I should be - fiduciary duty and all that ).

Sole trader / small ltd co / simple business = Yes
Multi User / Over audit threshold = Probably not

[w1bbles]

And my caveat is that I am only running a business with a 500k turnover and 3 employees, with 2 people (myself and wife) doing the books. For that, it is excellent.

On the other hand my day job currently involves programme managing a multi-country, multi-currency Oracle implementation so I can see both sides of the coin ;-)

[Eric Mc]

Doofus said:

Eric Mc said:

Thanks for clarifying.

It's just that I've heard mixed reports.

The one example I saw of Xero in action, I was not impressed at all - but that was more down to the user than the system, I suspect.

Have you had statutory accounts prepared using the Xero figures?
In other words, has your accountant reviewed what Xero has produced?

I do my own stats. And I've used Xero, yes. One of the things I like is that as it's cloud-based, I can give my accountants a login, and they can play around to their hearts' content. We scan and attach all invoices too, so they can be viewed online. We used to scan journal vouchers, but I got bored of that.

As I said the lack of audit trail might make accountants jumpy, but I'm happy with what it does, and I'm happy to stand by the accounts (as I should be - fiduciary duty and all that ).

Sole trader / small ltd co / simple business = Yes
Multi User / Over audit threshold = Probably not

Yes, the lack of followability of transactions stood out to me as a worrying aspect. Even though most accounts don't need formal statutory audits, the ability to follow through transactions from source to execution is a crucial aspect of what accounts are supposed to be about. Indeed, the word "accounts" is essentially about being able to explain and justify transactions WITHOUT having to quiz or interrogate the people who processed the transactions.

If a system doesn't allow that, then that system is flawed.

[dfen5]

h8tax said:

....the main thing is we have some sales which are vat free, and some which are not (agricultural basis) - the current book-keepers tell me that Sage is not particularly good at handling mixed vat rates?

.

ik

I use Sage (or at least my book keeper does) and never had any problems? You just select the relevant Vat option. Think there's about 5 in use in my setup.

[Eric Mc]

Concur

You just set up your VAT rate options in Sage and chosen the appropriate option for each transaction.

Sage has had this facility since at least 1988..

[V8OW]

I'd second the Xero option.

I used Line 50 for several years in the past, but I've been really impressed with Xero as a system.

Whilst I don't use it regularly, I have used it a few times to prepare year end accounts with no issue. I'm pretty sure a few audit clients I know of also use Xero, and I've not heard of any issues with tracing transactions or obtaining data.

[Chainsaw Rebuild]

Another option is clearbooks; I'm no expert but I like it.

[Jockman]

We have just moved to SAP business one from sage line 50.

I regret it.

If used correctly sage will improve your business and at your level it is something you will grow in to.

[Eric Mc]

I have a client which was motoring along OK using Sage and then switched to something called OGL. It was not an improvement.

[dmsims]

How do you take backups in Xero? (say for an errant staff member or testing a feed)

If Xero go under how do you get your data?

[w1bbles]

Some answers here:

https://community.xero.com/business/discussion/103...

I'm not connected to Xero in any way - just a satisfied customer.

[Doofus]

Within the last few days, they've introduced a detailed transactions report, which shows every entry by GL code (essentially a detailed TB). This, printed monthly, along with hard copy invoices will provide a useful safety net for most.

There's not much point in backing up the electronic data, because if Xero goes bust, you won't be able to use Xero to restore your backup.