Back to the gym...

[Ki3r]

I've decided that I need to start going back to the gym, I've tried to lose weight but just diet, but sadly I like my food too much, so if I want my treats I'm going to have to go to the gym to make up for it. Trouble is I have no idea what to do.

2011 I was planning to join the Army. I lost six stone, was able to run my mile and a half in just under ten minutes. Dread to think what its like at the moment! I can't remember what I was doing then though. I was seeing a personal trainer twice a week, but can't afford to do that anymore.

So, back to the gym tomorrow before work. I'm thinking of the couch to 5k program on the treadmill and then some weights. I was thinking of using this program but just found out the gym doesn't have any machines, just free weights (its only a small one at work). If anyone can give me a bit of advice that would be great. Theres loads online and its all rather confusing!

[LordGrover]

Does free weights area include squat rack and bench?
Stronglifts 5x5?

[Ki3r]

Just a bench.

[Hoofy]

C25K sounds like a good idea for fitness and burning calories.

If all you have are dumbbells and a bench plus maybe a pull up bar, do many or all of these exercises: https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/4-dynamite-du...

[MurderousCrow]

Ki3r said:

I've decided that I need to start going back to the gym, I've tried to lose weight but just diet, but sadly I like my food too much, so if I want my treats I'm going to have to go to the gym to make up for it. Trouble is I have no idea what to do.

Frankly you're going about this back to front. A good training regime is supported via appropriate diet, as opposed to training so you can justify treats. You’re saying you want to lose weight: by this you certainly mean lose fat, but the two are not synonymous. You should aim to preserve (and develop) lean mass as much as possible. Fat loss is almost entirely mediated via diet; activity helps, but less than most people think. There are many schools of thought on dieting while training. However they all work via calorie restriction. I think they are all valid to a degree: ultimately it comes down to what diet method suits you and is sustainable while you work towards your goals. Examples include macro tracking, intermittent fasting, ketogenic diet and low-carb. Regardless, if you do train strength, ensure adequate protein of at least 1.5-2g per kg bodyweight daily.

Your gym sounds awful. Try to find one with a squat rack. As Mr Grover suggests above, a beginner's strength program is what you need, for a variety of good reasons. Stronglifts, Starting Strength, etc. These programs use the barbell and a linear progression (adding weight over time) to help you achieve the strength potential you currently have available. They use compound, multi-joint exercises such as the squat, bench, deadlift, overhead press and barbell row. Isolation / accessory work is very much optional for you as a beginner, as the compound movements are the best foundation for genuine strength. Programs such as this are designed to provide you with a solid base, and usually take anything between 8-16 weeks to max out the easy gains. You’re then more into the realm of increasing muscle size to gain more strength. These programs won’t add huge amounts of lean mass, but instead provide the essential tuning required to achieve meaningful progress henceforth.

If you can access a squat rack and barbell, buy the Starting Strength book. While imperfect for more advanced trainees (not to mention opinionated) it covers form and technique in a way which will keep you safe as you start to develop your strength. Also look into getting some one-off coaching from a decent powerlifting coach. If getting access to a squat rack is not possible, you could use kettlebell training as your base work, and add in accessory stuff as you wish. Pavel Tsatsouline and Dan John are respected authorities on using the KB to build strength, their materials are available online and through amazon and ebay.

Bear in mind that losing fat and training optimally are ultimately incompatible: you will find good progress initially, but this will tail off as your training advances and becomes more physiologically (as opposed to just mentally) demanding. You'll then need to decide whether you prefer being shredded or strong. Most people cycle over time with something resembling a 'bulk' and 'cut' approach to greater or lesser degrees.

Combine your strength work with consistent, light-effort cardio on a near daily basis. 20min of such 5-7x a week is much more effective than the injury-inducing, morale-sapping thrashings you see many folk putting themselves through. The cardio will help with fat loss, but will not be sufficient on its own to make serious inroads into body composition without paying attention to diet.

I'd also advise caution with running. Many people use Couch to 5k; it's undoubtedly a good program. But research is also very clear that running has an inherent and disproportionately high injury rate, particularly among beginners compared with other aerobic training methods. That naturally feeds into a high dropout rate. Instead I'd recommend you do your cardio on a rower or a bike. These offer good progression (unlike ellipticals) and avoid the stress, impact and eccentric loading associated with running.

Regards training, a key principle to follow in your journey is this: consistency and good movement are both far more important than intensity. Don't chase numbers.

[stew-S160]

MurderousCrow said:

Ki3r said:

I've decided that I need to start going back to the gym, I've tried to lose weight but just diet, but sadly I like my food too much, so if I want my treats I'm going to have to go to the gym to make up for it. Trouble is I have no idea what to do.

Stuff

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Yipper]

The medical research is increasingly showing that part-time exercise (gyming it once a day) gains, not loses, weight. Exercise drives hunger.

If you want to shed weight and keep it off, the medical research shows it has to be done slowly by diet. For example, averaging 1500-1800 calories a day for 3 years.

The BBC's Dr Mosely talk a lot of sense:

https://thefastdiet.co.uk

Diet = weight.
Exercise = health.

[MurderousCrow]

Yipper said:

The medical research is increasingly showing that part-time exercise (gyming it once a day) gains, not loses, weight. Exercise drives hunger.

The research is mixed. If there is a consensus, it is that results are dependent on population, frequency, intensity, type of training... Aerobic exercise *can* cause an increase in *hunger*. It is not inevitably linked to 'weight' gain, as large numbers of recreational endurance athletes can attest.

Yipper said:

If you want to shed weight and keep it off, the medical research shows it has to be done slowly by diet. For example, averaging 1500-1800 calories a day for 3 years.

I don't think that's correct. A three year timescale for shedding bodyfat is both unappealing, and simply not based in fact. Effective and significant fat loss can be achieved over much shorter timescales. If maintaining strength is important (it should be) this loss should be *relatively* slow. Evidence-based recommendations for fat loss in overweight but non-obese people generally end up in the ballpark of 0.5kg bodyweight per week. This rate seems to correlate well with maintenance of strength and lean mass.

As to keeping fat off, this comes down to common sense: it's about lifestyle change. That can and absolutely should involve regular exercise, some self-discipline, and occasional rewards.

[chris watton]

Yipper said:

The medical research is increasingly showing that part-time exercise (gyming it once a day) gains, not loses, weight. Exercise drives hunger.

If you want to shed weight and keep it off, the medical research shows it has to be done slowly by diet. For example, averaging 1500-1800 calories a day for 3 years.

The BBC's Dr Mosely talk a lot of sense:

https://thefastdiet.co.uk

Diet = weight.
Exercise = health.

I have treated diet and regular exercise as equal importance. However, if you still eat and drink crap, it is quite true that you cannot out train that (unless you have time to train 6-8 hours per day...)

I know that it didn't take me three years to come down from 90-70kg, it took a little less than six months, combining both a healthy diet and regular resistance training (3-4 times per week). With hindsight I perhaps went a little too far with the diet, 12-1400 calories per day. I have kept the fat off though in these past three years and added another healthy4-5 kg in the past year or so.

I have said this before, I find it amazing how little we really need to eat, even when training heavy to add muscle, but I am talking of someone in their late forties/early fifties, where metabolism isn't so rampant...

[Muzzer79]

MurderousCrow said:

I'd also advise caution with running. Many people use Couch to 5k; it's undoubtedly a good program. But research is also very clear that running has an inherent and disproportionately high injury rate, particularly among beginners compared with other aerobic training methods. That naturally feeds into a high dropout rate. Instead I'd recommend you do your cardio on a rower or a bike. These offer good progression (unlike ellipticals) and avoid the stress, impact and eccentric loading associated with running.

The problem with running is, like other exercise disciplines, poor form.

It sounds like an odd concept but if you are going to run with any distance and/or regularity, you need to have good form.

Good form leads to minimal injuries.

Bad form leads to "an inherent and disproportionately high injury rate"

Couch to 5k is pretty low impact and will likely do you little harm if you follow it correctly. Problems start when people get hooked and start upping distances and/or regularity without core training and with poor form (I speak from experience)

[MurderousCrow]

Muzzer79 said:

The problem with running is, like other exercise disciplines, poor form.

It sounds like an odd concept but if you are going to run with any distance and/or regularity, you need to have good form.

Good form leads to minimal injuries.

Bad form leads to "an inherent and disproportionately high injury rate"

I would largely agree. I'm of the belief that running *can* form an important and useful part of general training, however any kind of distance must be built up to gradually with the greatest emphasis on movement quality. Very few people are willing to admit they need coaching and supervision: many end up injured, which is clearly shown in the literature. The risk is certainly inherent, as far as how nearly everyone practices running. Some people are lucky and never get injured. Many aren't.

There are plenty of good reasons to run. Someone may just want to, or it could be a question of convenience or need - no gym access available for example. It may be required for professional purposes. Various things can help beginners and detrained individuals to avoid injury when starting to run. In a previous thread on running I suggested these points:

MurderousCrow said:

- Don't run tired. When you feel your motion breaking down and becoming ragged, this is when you need to stop or walk - at least for a short while... You should feel in control for the entire workout - as if you could easily sprint away at any time if you needed to.

- When increasing distance, either carry a warm top or keep your loops short (and just re-run a segment). This will allow you to slow down and walk if needs be, without risking cooling down too much.

- Run as much as possible on grass, earth and gravel. It's much kinder to the joints.

- If you feel any kind of niggle / pain, STOP. Walk it off, rebuild pace gently if it goes away, and be prepared to walk home if needs be. Lovely neurotransmitters released during exercise are great for disguising pain signals (good evolutionary stuff), on the flip side this means that any abnormal sensations while running may well be an injury.

- Work on mobility. Get a foam roller and introduce the outside of your thighs to it. Learn to love the discomfort, as it will allow you to keep running. (The hip abductors, specifically Tensor Fasciae Lata at the hip / upper outer thigh, have a tendency to over-activate in new runners. Over time this can cause a chronic shortening and tightening of the muscle's long tendinous end, the ilio-tibial tract, predisposing to knee pain and injury.)

- Look into getting a heart rate monitor. These do two things very well: firstly they allow you to chart your progress over time - you will see a reduction in average HR for a given distance at a given pace, or an increase in distance / pace at a given HR. Secondly they can stop you from working too hard, by alerting you when HR goes over a given limit. Google 'heart rate reserve' to work out your individual training ranges.

I'd suggest that a large part of the success of Couch to 5k is the fact it loads people gradually. But many people are impatient, as you can see in the popularity of programmes such as T25 and so on. Not everyone has the mental or physical attributes required to run well, at least not before it's too late. Whereas people are far less likely to be injured on rowers and bikes, and will quickly be able to achieve a meaningful aerobic workout.

In my opinion it's worth exercising caution with running, and treating it as an accessory activity to begin with, until it's either wanted or needed as a main activity. For those who do not need or particularly want to run, there are other equally effective and less injurious ways to obtain aerobic endurance capacity.

[Ki3r]

I've taken the plunge and rejoined a gym today. Pure Gym as they are open 24/7 (no excuse for not going now..) and a five minute walk away.

I've had a look at my BMI and it comes back as 33.7 (obese). To be healthy I need to get down to 14st 12lbs. I got down to 15st 7lbs a few years ago and made myself ill so won't be going that far again.

I want to get to 17st (currently 20st). I've given myself a target of 13th of November, no other reason other than its at the end of a driving course. 15 weeks to lose 15kg.

[LordGrover]

That's a lot to lose per week over that timescale. Will take a lot of effort and commitment.
Best of luck!

[Hoofy]

1kg a week is quite healthy according to many sites.

"To be healthy I need to get down to 14st 12lbs. I got down to 15st 7lbs a few years ago and made myself ill so won't be going that far again."

It's not the absolute figure that was the issue but probably the speed you attempted to do it in that made you ill. Unless you're 7ft tall, you could probably get down to 13st without issue if you give yourself a year+ to do it.

[LordGrover]

Heh. I'm 6'1" and 75kgs, carrying a little bellyfat so could stand to lose probably another couple of kilos. Admittedly slim build with narrow wrists and ankles.

[Ki3r]

Hoofy said:

1kg a week is quite healthy according to many sites.

"To be healthy I need to get down to 14st 12lbs. I got down to 15st 7lbs a few years ago and made myself ill so won't be going that far again."

It's not the absolute figure that was the issue but probably the speed you attempted to do it in that made you ill. Unless you're 7ft tall, you could probably get down to 13st without issue if you give yourself a year+ to do it.

I lost that in around a year or so. I was applying for the army, was either going to the gym or for a run three times a week, and seeing a personal trainer twice a week. Eating wise was weatabix for breakfast, lunch was poached egg on toast and dinner was some kind of meat (normally fish) with veg and spuds. Other than Saturday...which I allowed myself a chocolate bar at lunch time when I was at work.

I'd be happy at 16st. Long as my bike leathers still fit mind you!

[Hoofy]

Ki3r said:

Hoofy said:

1kg a week is quite healthy according to many sites.

"To be healthy I need to get down to 14st 12lbs. I got down to 15st 7lbs a few years ago and made myself ill so won't be going that far again."

It's not the absolute figure that was the issue but probably the speed you attempted to do it in that made you ill. Unless you're 7ft tall, you could probably get down to 13st without issue if you give yourself a year+ to do it.

I lost that in around a year or so. I was applying for the army, was either going to the gym or for a run three times a week, and seeing a personal trainer twice a week. Eating wise was weatabix for breakfast, lunch was poached egg on toast and dinner was some kind of meat (normally fish) with veg and spuds. Other than Saturday...which I allowed myself a chocolate bar at lunch time when I was at work.

I'd be happy at 16st. Long as my bike leathers still fit mind you!

Sounds like you weren't eating enough. What you have described is probably half my daily intake.