Authorised to Break the Speed Limit ?
Discussion
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4549694/He...
Sorry for the Daily Mail link.
In light of the horrific events of last week I admire the sentiment and hope that common sense would prevail.
Undoubtedly the actions of this lady saved a life.
However, without there being more to this story I can't believe any Police Force would sign off on a civilian exceeding the limit.
I live in a very tolerant (hardly any Police presence) area of the South West and we had a Doctor nicked by a speed camera taking a critically ill patient to Hospital. Her reasoning was rejected by the Court and she was fined and had points applied to her licence even though the incident occurred at 2am and had she waited for an Ambulance the patient would have died.
So in times of Civil Unrest / Terrorist Atrocities is the application of law softened in the interest of the greater good and there being more important things to worry about ?
Or is the Daily Mail just talking rubbish again ?
Sorry for the Daily Mail link.
In light of the horrific events of last week I admire the sentiment and hope that common sense would prevail.
Undoubtedly the actions of this lady saved a life.
However, without there being more to this story I can't believe any Police Force would sign off on a civilian exceeding the limit.
I live in a very tolerant (hardly any Police presence) area of the South West and we had a Doctor nicked by a speed camera taking a critically ill patient to Hospital. Her reasoning was rejected by the Court and she was fined and had points applied to her licence even though the incident occurred at 2am and had she waited for an Ambulance the patient would have died.
So in times of Civil Unrest / Terrorist Atrocities is the application of law softened in the interest of the greater good and there being more important things to worry about ?
Or is the Daily Mail just talking rubbish again ?
cologne2792 said:
we had a Doctor nicked by a speed camera taking a critically ill patient to Hospital. Her reasoning was rejected by the Court and she was fined and had points applied to her licence even though the incident occurred at 2am and had she waited for an Ambulance the patient would have died.
That seems peculiarly cruel.Still, sometimes consequences aren't worth giving a damn about.
Back in 1996 I was working next to the place this happened.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/sragtech/casealbright9...
When they evacuated the area they told us to just get the fook out as fast as we could, Police were giving us grief for driving to the limit and told us to get on the M5 and drive.
It was a more tolerant time and exceptional circumstances.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/sragtech/casealbright9...
When they evacuated the area they told us to just get the fook out as fast as we could, Police were giving us grief for driving to the limit and told us to get on the M5 and drive.
It was a more tolerant time and exceptional circumstances.
Our vet was stopped by psni traffic branch one night about 2yrs ago on his way to our farm to do a c section on a cow. Usual story, came up behind him, matched his speed for a bit and then put on the lights to pull him over.
Our vet says the traffic officer came out of the car, torch in hand looking though the back of his Aventis estate, seeing calving jack, bottles of medicine, implements etc, lands up to the drivers window, says you're a vet aren't you? vet says yes I'm on way to a c.section, thats why i'm pushing on a bit, traffic officer says push her harder and walks back to his car, gets in and does a u turn behind him and disappears up the road.
So sometimes they do allow speeding..
Our vet says the traffic officer came out of the car, torch in hand looking though the back of his Aventis estate, seeing calving jack, bottles of medicine, implements etc, lands up to the drivers window, says you're a vet aren't you? vet says yes I'm on way to a c.section, thats why i'm pushing on a bit, traffic officer says push her harder and walks back to his car, gets in and does a u turn behind him and disappears up the road.
So sometimes they do allow speeding..
Francy555 said:
Our vet was stopped by psni traffic branch one night about 2yrs ago on his way to our farm to do a c section on a cow. Usual story, came up behind him, matched his speed for a bit and then put on the lights to pull him over.
Our vet says the traffic officer came out of the car, torch in hand looking though the back of his Aventis estate, seeing calving jack, bottles of medicine, implements etc, lands up to the drivers window, says you're a vet aren't you? vet says yes I'm on way to a c.section, thats why i'm pushing on a bit, traffic officer says push her harder and walks back to his car, gets in and does a u turn behind him and disappears up the road.
So sometimes they do allow speeding..
Difference between a human and a camera, human wins.Our vet says the traffic officer came out of the car, torch in hand looking though the back of his Aventis estate, seeing calving jack, bottles of medicine, implements etc, lands up to the drivers window, says you're a vet aren't you? vet says yes I'm on way to a c.section, thats why i'm pushing on a bit, traffic officer says push her harder and walks back to his car, gets in and does a u turn behind him and disappears up the road.
So sometimes they do allow speeding..
There's a general principle in the law known as "duress of circumstances" which means that broadly speaking if
(1) you believed that your actions were the only way to prevent death or serious injury, to yourself or someone else
(2) that belief was reasonable in the circumstances, and
(3) your actions were a reasonable response to the situation, ie you didn't create more danger by speeding (or whatever) than you were trying to escape
then I'm principle you have a defence to any crime except murder and treason.
Hence in R v Conway a man was acquitted of driving "recklessly and at great speed" because he thought (wrongly as it turned out) that he was being pursued by a gun wielding killer. And in Pipe v DPP a man had his conviction for speeding overturned because he was taking a seriously injured child to hospital and no ambulance was available.
So yes there are (rare) circumstances where it's legal for a civilian to speed in an emergency. The doctor mentioned in the OP sounds like he should at least have had an arguable case. But ultimately it's up to the magistrates to make a judgement call on what's reasonable based on the specific circumstances of each case. (They do get the law wrong occasionally as well as in Pipe v DPP - the man in question had to go to the High Court to get his conviction overturned).
(1) you believed that your actions were the only way to prevent death or serious injury, to yourself or someone else
(2) that belief was reasonable in the circumstances, and
(3) your actions were a reasonable response to the situation, ie you didn't create more danger by speeding (or whatever) than you were trying to escape
then I'm principle you have a defence to any crime except murder and treason.
Hence in R v Conway a man was acquitted of driving "recklessly and at great speed" because he thought (wrongly as it turned out) that he was being pursued by a gun wielding killer. And in Pipe v DPP a man had his conviction for speeding overturned because he was taking a seriously injured child to hospital and no ambulance was available.
So yes there are (rare) circumstances where it's legal for a civilian to speed in an emergency. The doctor mentioned in the OP sounds like he should at least have had an arguable case. But ultimately it's up to the magistrates to make a judgement call on what's reasonable based on the specific circumstances of each case. (They do get the law wrong occasionally as well as in Pipe v DPP - the man in question had to go to the High Court to get his conviction overturned).
A friend of mine who is a police officer once escorted a bloke to hospital where his daughter had taken ill. He was flagged down by the bloke who was after direction and on hearing the circumstances, led the bloke to the hospital at high speed on blues, having the civilian driver follow him through red lights etc etc at a cautious pace. When needs must, exceptions can be made.
cologne2792 said:
I live in a very tolerant (hardly any Police presence) area of the South West and we had a Doctor nicked by a speed camera taking a critically ill patient to Hospital. Her reasoning was rejected by the Court and she was fined and had points applied to her licence even though the incident occurred at 2am and had she waited for an Ambulance the patient would have died.
Assuming that story's true - and I'm assuming you have no reason to lie - the people (Magistrates?) who confirmed that conviction should be relieved of their duties as IMO they've demonstrated quite clearly that they aren't fit to sit in judgement on anyone. Edited by JNW1 on Monday 29th May 07:33
cologne2792 said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4549694/He...
Sorry for the Daily Mail link.
....
Or is the Daily Mail just talking rubbish again ?
How sorry? Just marginally apologetic or totally ripped to pieces sleepless nights-type sorry.Sorry for the Daily Mail link.
....
Or is the Daily Mail just talking rubbish again ?
This is important when scouring the DM for news then posting an apology for it on a car enthusiasts forum thread.
Loyly said:
A friend of mine who is a police officer once escorted a bloke to hospital where his daughter had taken ill. He was flagged down by the bloke who was after direction and on hearing the circumstances, led the bloke to the hospital at high speed on blues, having the civilian driver follow him through red lights etc etc at a cautious pace. When needs must, exceptions can be made.
Police officer would get disciplined for that if found out.They can't even escort an ambulance without first getting authority to do it.
JNW1 said:
cologne2792 said:
I live in a very tolerant (hardly any Police presence) area of the South West and we had a Doctor nicked by a speed camera taking a critically ill patient to Hospital. Her reasoning was rejected by the Court and she was fined and had points applied to her licence even though the incident occurred at 2am and had she waited for an Ambulance the patient would have died.
Assuming that story's true - and I'm assuming you have no reason to lie - the people (Magistrates?) who confirmed that conviction should be relieved of their duties as IMO they've demonstrated quite clearly that they aren't fit to sit in judgement on anyone. It's up to him to convince the Police/CPS/Court & he failed to convince all three presumably.
vonhosen said:
JNW1 said:
cologne2792 said:
I live in a very tolerant (hardly any Police presence) area of the South West and we had a Doctor nicked by a speed camera taking a critically ill patient to Hospital. Her reasoning was rejected by the Court and she was fined and had points applied to her licence even though the incident occurred at 2am and had she waited for an Ambulance the patient would have died.
Assuming that story's true - and I'm assuming you have no reason to lie - the people (Magistrates?) who confirmed that conviction should be relieved of their duties as IMO they've demonstrated quite clearly that they aren't fit to sit in judgement on anyone. It's up to him to convince the Police/CPS/Court & he failed to convince all three presumably.
JNW1 said:
Assuming that story's true - and I'm assuming you have no reason to lie - the people (Magistrates?) who confirmed that conviction should be relieved of their duties as IMO they've demonstrated quite clearly that they aren't fit to sit in judgement on anyone.
Speeding is a "strict liability" offence. The only possible defence is that he was not speeding (I know that's not a defence it's a denial). If it is proved (or he admits) that he was exceeding the speed limit, no matter the reason, he was guilty. If you don't like it, talk to your MP. Don't blame the magistrate.Edited by JNW1 on Monday 29th May 07:33
hutchst said:
JNW1 said:
Assuming that story's true - and I'm assuming you have no reason to lie - the people (Magistrates?) who confirmed that conviction should be relieved of their duties as IMO they've demonstrated quite clearly that they aren't fit to sit in judgement on anyone.
Speeding is a "strict liability" offence. The only possible defence is that he was not speeding (I know that's not a defence it's a denial). If it is proved (or he admits) that he was exceeding the speed limit, no matter the reason, he was guilty. If you don't like it, talk to your MP. Don't blame the magistrate.Edited by JNW1 on Monday 29th May 07:33
As for talking to my MP, I'm fully aware that would achieve precisely nothing so I'm not inclined to waste either his time or mine.
I've mentioned this on here before.
Stuck at a very busy mini-roundabout once (end of Billericay High Street, coming from Shenfield) with a Police car absolutely desperate to get through but stuck behind behind me and the bloke next to me, they were on full lights and sirens and the copper in the passenger seat was bouncing about and pulling very agitated faces and hand movements.
No b
d would let me pull onto the roundabout for what seemed like ages, in the end I floored it round to the right onto a 30 limit, single lane (going towards Basildon) only to see the Police car right behind me still desperate to get through. Loads of people on the pavement and loads of cars coming the other way but clear ahead so I just thought "fk it" and floored it. I was in a very fast car and hit over 3 times the speed limit before braking hard and pulling into a lay-by on the left. Police car came tearing past with the passenger seat copper waving thanks at me and I never heard another thing about it.
Only time I've ever done 100 in a 30 and in full view of the Police!
Stuck at a very busy mini-roundabout once (end of Billericay High Street, coming from Shenfield) with a Police car absolutely desperate to get through but stuck behind behind me and the bloke next to me, they were on full lights and sirens and the copper in the passenger seat was bouncing about and pulling very agitated faces and hand movements.
No b
d would let me pull onto the roundabout for what seemed like ages, in the end I floored it round to the right onto a 30 limit, single lane (going towards Basildon) only to see the Police car right behind me still desperate to get through. Loads of people on the pavement and loads of cars coming the other way but clear ahead so I just thought "fk it" and floored it. I was in a very fast car and hit over 3 times the speed limit before braking hard and pulling into a lay-by on the left. Police car came tearing past with the passenger seat copper waving thanks at me and I never heard another thing about it.Only time I've ever done 100 in a 30 and in full view of the Police!
I think sometimes the courts are run by people who Dont live in the real world. I am sure anyone would do the same I was behind a car all over the road and was about to overtake to get him to pull over when he crashed and died. He was having a heart attack.
I would have broken the law to help save someone even if it meant a chance of going to jail.
I hope she gets a medal but at the same time there are people doing this every day as there job for no reward.
I would have broken the law to help save someone even if it meant a chance of going to jail.
I hope she gets a medal but at the same time there are people doing this every day as there job for no reward.
br d said:
I've mentioned this on here before.
Stuck at a very busy mini-roundabout once (end of Billericay High Street, coming from Shenfield) with a Police car absolutely desperate to get through but stuck behind behind me and the bloke next to me, they were on full lights and sirens and the copper in the passenger seat was bouncing about and pulling very agitated faces and hand movements.
No bd would let me pull onto the roundabout for what seemed like ages, in the end I floored it round to the right onto a 30 limit, single lane (going towards Basildon) only to see the Police car right behind me still desperate to get through. Loads of people on the pavement and loads of cars coming the other way but clear ahead so I just thought "fk it" and floored it. I was in a very fast car and hit over 3 times the speed limit before braking hard and pulling into a lay-by on the left. Police car came tearing past with the passenger seat copper waving thanks at me and I never heard another thing about it.
Only time I've ever done 100 in a 30 and in full view of the Police!
I've had the same before. Driving down what was a 2 lane dual carriageway but with one lane closed and speed reduced to 30. Nothing in front of me but I was sat at 30 like a good boy. Unmarked car came up very fast behind me and I was looking for a gap to move into the coned off bit to let them past, found one went to brake and just got full lights and sirens so just did the same as you and floored it. They've caught up and are still on my bum so I just kept pushing on until it was time to brake at the roundabout, I went left and they went right with a thumb up from the passenger. That was about a week ago and have yet to hear anything...Stuck at a very busy mini-roundabout once (end of Billericay High Street, coming from Shenfield) with a Police car absolutely desperate to get through but stuck behind behind me and the bloke next to me, they were on full lights and sirens and the copper in the passenger seat was bouncing about and pulling very agitated faces and hand movements.
No b
d would let me pull onto the roundabout for what seemed like ages, in the end I floored it round to the right onto a 30 limit, single lane (going towards Basildon) only to see the Police car right behind me still desperate to get through. Loads of people on the pavement and loads of cars coming the other way but clear ahead so I just thought "fk it" and floored it. I was in a very fast car and hit over 3 times the speed limit before braking hard and pulling into a lay-by on the left. Police car came tearing past with the passenger seat copper waving thanks at me and I never heard another thing about it.Only time I've ever done 100 in a 30 and in full view of the Police!
I did do 60 in a 40 zone once for an Ambulance. I saw him coming, there was nowhere to pull in and the road wasn't good for passing. It's the only time I've ever blasted my horn at somebody obeying the law! (I wasn't sure that they knew). I found a place I could pull in, and the ambulance went past a few seconds later. So, while legally I shouldn't have done it, 1/2 a mile at 60 rather than 40 saves an ambulance 15 seconds. And it's not got any obvious reason for being a 40 zone.
A friend of mine has some good tales about when he was training the police to drive HGVs so they could enforce HGV regulations with a bit of real-world knowledge. Something about being told where the speed traps would be, and "give it the beans when you come through, we'll recognise you".
Someone was pulled over at the speed trap and he came through at 96 or so, and the word is the police insisted to the stopped driver that my friend was doing 30 like he was 'sposed to.
Someone was pulled over at the speed trap and he came through at 96 or so, and the word is the police insisted to the stopped driver that my friend was doing 30 like he was 'sposed to.
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