What next? E46 M3, mk Megane RS or Fiesta ST180?
Discussion
looking at spending around the 10-12k mark on a car used mostly at weekends for spirited drives, intentions of a couple of trips around wales, Scotland and Europe and track days.
I currently own a BMW m140i with a few nice mods JB4 + decat to mention a few which I intend on handing back as it's on PCP and im in a position where the financial penalty on the PCP won't be so much if i were to give it back. As much of a good car it is now I've got my own place the monthly costs of the car I can no longer justify, plus it's not something I'd like to have an incident in on a track day! I also don't find it that engaging to drive, maybe I should of opted for the manual but in all honestly if your not doing silly speeds it's rather dull! My two previous cars to this was a very well spec'd E82 135i which was 450bhp/500ftlbs and a E36 lovely 328i sport which I intended on using for track but regrettably sold it!! I sold these two to fund a house deposit and since took out PCP on a new m140i as it felt the logical step to take with the warranty etc and tuning potential.
I've never owned a hot hatch before and now I can really see the appeal of them! The two I've narrowed it down to are the Mk3 Megane RS and fiesta ST. I drove the Megane 275 cup s before I got the m140i and I was seriously impressed. Absolute hoot to drive! I should of probably just bought one of them but believe it or not it came in around the same price as the m140i with the serious discounts that are to be had on the m140s. I know the Meganes have been compared to the the FWD equivalent to be GT3 and I can see why they are fantastic. A couple of things that put me off is the build quality and renaults reputation for reliability! I think the Megane has serious potential to become a very fast, fast road car and track with a decent set of coilovers and bolt on engine mods with a remap from RS tuning.
I've also been a passenger in the AET motorsport voodoo fiesta that's running over 300bhp with numerous other trick bits coilovers, BBK and LSD etc and that was an absolute weapon! You hear nothing but good things about the fiesta ST and there's plenty of tuning potential it's just the boy racer image that comes with them even tho I've only just turned 24 myself can't help but think they are abit McDonald's car park 2am. I think a benefit it would have over a Megane as for the price you get a much newer car!
And then there's the E46 m3, would have to be a manual coupe! Obviously a cracking car and with a few mods would make the perfect car I'd just hate to think I bought a lemon plus the running costs far exceeds the other two.
Has anyone been lucky enough to drive all 3 or even just one and able share an opinion to help me come to a decision? Or even suggest another car they think could fit the bill?
I currently own a BMW m140i with a few nice mods JB4 + decat to mention a few which I intend on handing back as it's on PCP and im in a position where the financial penalty on the PCP won't be so much if i were to give it back. As much of a good car it is now I've got my own place the monthly costs of the car I can no longer justify, plus it's not something I'd like to have an incident in on a track day! I also don't find it that engaging to drive, maybe I should of opted for the manual but in all honestly if your not doing silly speeds it's rather dull! My two previous cars to this was a very well spec'd E82 135i which was 450bhp/500ftlbs and a E36 lovely 328i sport which I intended on using for track but regrettably sold it!! I sold these two to fund a house deposit and since took out PCP on a new m140i as it felt the logical step to take with the warranty etc and tuning potential.
I've never owned a hot hatch before and now I can really see the appeal of them! The two I've narrowed it down to are the Mk3 Megane RS and fiesta ST. I drove the Megane 275 cup s before I got the m140i and I was seriously impressed. Absolute hoot to drive! I should of probably just bought one of them but believe it or not it came in around the same price as the m140i with the serious discounts that are to be had on the m140s. I know the Meganes have been compared to the the FWD equivalent to be GT3 and I can see why they are fantastic. A couple of things that put me off is the build quality and renaults reputation for reliability! I think the Megane has serious potential to become a very fast, fast road car and track with a decent set of coilovers and bolt on engine mods with a remap from RS tuning.
I've also been a passenger in the AET motorsport voodoo fiesta that's running over 300bhp with numerous other trick bits coilovers, BBK and LSD etc and that was an absolute weapon! You hear nothing but good things about the fiesta ST and there's plenty of tuning potential it's just the boy racer image that comes with them even tho I've only just turned 24 myself can't help but think they are abit McDonald's car park 2am. I think a benefit it would have over a Megane as for the price you get a much newer car!
And then there's the E46 m3, would have to be a manual coupe! Obviously a cracking car and with a few mods would make the perfect car I'd just hate to think I bought a lemon plus the running costs far exceeds the other two.
Has anyone been lucky enough to drive all 3 or even just one and able share an opinion to help me come to a decision? Or even suggest another car they think could fit the bill?
Edited by Shotdog on Friday 2nd June 21:54
Edited by Shotdog on Friday 2nd June 22:02
I've driven/owned all three, sort of.
I've had 2 x RS Meganes, an M135i in between, and driven an ST.
Couldn't get on with the M-lite at all. Vertical control of the mass at speed was borderline frightening. I understand the M140i is marginally better, but not massively so.
I thought the ST had a nice sort of 'go-kart' feel, but really lacked punch compared to the 'next level up' hot hatches. The cost to get one up to the performance level of a standard Megane, plus the depreciation on top of your mods, will be eye watering.
Personally, I think what you need is a Megane 275 Cup S with optional factory Ohlins, and not a lot else. It'll give you the fast road set up, plus better compliance than the standard Cup specced cars. I see no reason to upgrade the suspension/handling - they are ridiculously good out of the box.
Plus it'll only be a 2016 car so still under warranty for 2 years. I had no issues with either of mine, and the latter 275 only cost my £19k new!
One word of warning, remapping a Megane unlocks a ridiculous amount of torque - in my case about 80ft lbs - but in the process made mine pretty unruly due to the aggressive LSD.
Good luck.
I've had 2 x RS Meganes, an M135i in between, and driven an ST.
Couldn't get on with the M-lite at all. Vertical control of the mass at speed was borderline frightening. I understand the M140i is marginally better, but not massively so.
I thought the ST had a nice sort of 'go-kart' feel, but really lacked punch compared to the 'next level up' hot hatches. The cost to get one up to the performance level of a standard Megane, plus the depreciation on top of your mods, will be eye watering.
Personally, I think what you need is a Megane 275 Cup S with optional factory Ohlins, and not a lot else. It'll give you the fast road set up, plus better compliance than the standard Cup specced cars. I see no reason to upgrade the suspension/handling - they are ridiculously good out of the box.
Plus it'll only be a 2016 car so still under warranty for 2 years. I had no issues with either of mine, and the latter 275 only cost my £19k new!
One word of warning, remapping a Megane unlocks a ridiculous amount of torque - in my case about 80ft lbs - but in the process made mine pretty unruly due to the aggressive LSD.
Good luck.
Welshbeef said:
E46 M3 is a very good car - slower than what you are used to but frankly it's now or never really as sooner than later they will be a bit too old for daily use.
You've had hot hatched in the M135i/M140i but rwd.
Go for an icon not a hotted up a to b car.
An M3 is just a hotted up repmobile car though just like the others are hotted up hatchbacks. The e46 m3 is the most underwhelming car that I have driven as it was built up to be something special which imo it really is not.You've had hot hatched in the M135i/M140i but rwd.
Go for an icon not a hotted up a to b car.
OP you should drive them all and then decide.
The e46 can also be quite the moneypit.
Ahbefive said:
An M3 is just a hotted up repmobile car though just like the others are hotted up hatchbacks. The e46 m3 is the most underwhelming car that I have driven as it was built up to be something special which imo it really is not.
OP you should drive them all and then decide.
The e46 can also be quite the moneypit.
It's an M car with proper Motorsport upgrades. OP you should drive them all and then decide.
The e46 can also be quite the moneypit.
Agreed it's not a bespoke body
Ahbefive said:
An M3 is just a hotted up repmobile car though just like the others are hotted up hatchbacks. The e46 m3 is the most underwhelming car that I have driven as it was built up to be something special which imo it really is not.
OP you should drive them all and then decide.
The e46 can also be quite the moneypit.
Eh? Money pitt, yes can be, dull repmobile?? No way. Have you owned one?OP you should drive them all and then decide.
The e46 can also be quite the moneypit.
There's a nice ST local to me at ford garage that's only 2 years old and well within my budge which I'm going to look at this morning. A Megane Cup S would be the best choice but I don't want to get involved with PCP again, Renault wanted a rediculous amount of money a month with a large deposit in comparison to the 140 on a car that was 2 years old! Although that was the first deal I saw I'll have a dig around. By the time I've settled the finance on my car I won't have a deposit left for PCP which is why I'd rather take a loan.
E46 M3 I've ruled out as it's not realistic option to own. If I had a second car it would be alright but I don't intend running two cars and it will just end up been the same as the 140i an expensive ornament sat on my drive but this time without a warranty.
E46 M3 I've ruled out as it's not realistic option to own. If I had a second car it would be alright but I don't intend running two cars and it will just end up been the same as the 140i an expensive ornament sat on my drive but this time without a warranty.
Unfortunately, I haven’t had any experience with the Megane, but I have with the other two.
The Fiesta ST I drove had some modifications taking power to 210BHP, if I remember correctly. The rest of the car was standard. It was a lot of fun to drive and the performance was easily accessible. The chassis was a lot of fun to play with and wasn’t intimidating at all, meaning you could take liberties with it without getting yourself into trouble.
I have spent a lot of time in a friends E46 M3 and it was fantastic car to drive. It was a standard manual coupe car. The performance wasn’t as accessible as in the Fiesta – as expected really! – but this made it more rewarding to drive, and I suspect on a track day, more fun, as it would be more of challenge to extract performance from.
The Fiesta is a brilliant car against its usual competition but it doesn’t compare to an M3.
I wasn’t sure from your original post, but will you be using this car every day? If you’re not and this car is purely for weekends and track days, what about something more specialized like a Caterham or Elise?
The Fiesta ST I drove had some modifications taking power to 210BHP, if I remember correctly. The rest of the car was standard. It was a lot of fun to drive and the performance was easily accessible. The chassis was a lot of fun to play with and wasn’t intimidating at all, meaning you could take liberties with it without getting yourself into trouble.
I have spent a lot of time in a friends E46 M3 and it was fantastic car to drive. It was a standard manual coupe car. The performance wasn’t as accessible as in the Fiesta – as expected really! – but this made it more rewarding to drive, and I suspect on a track day, more fun, as it would be more of challenge to extract performance from.
The Fiesta is a brilliant car against its usual competition but it doesn’t compare to an M3.
I wasn’t sure from your original post, but will you be using this car every day? If you’re not and this car is purely for weekends and track days, what about something more specialized like a Caterham or Elise?
I'm not convinced any are sufficiently better and more enjoyable than your 140i would be. I did a back to back comparison of my Z4 Coupé with an E46 M3 a few years ago (and I've driven a 135i, 130i etc) and there wasn't really a big difference, plus I preferred the Z4C. Put decent suspension (BIrds?) on the 140i and fit a quaife LSD (which Birds also supply) and I suspect it'd actually be better to drive than an E46 M3.
I think to see a significant difference you'd need to go for a different type of car, for example a Lotus Exige, Caterham etc.
I think to see a significant difference you'd need to go for a different type of car, for example a Lotus Exige, Caterham etc.
The main issue is I don't get enough useage out of the car what it costs to own and run so I'm looking for a hot hatch that's fun and cheaper to run. To fit an LSD to the 140i is another £2000. The 140i is blisteringly quick but you get most the fun out of it at licence losing speeds. It's not a car you fully exploit down your local B road so you get most enjoyment out of it say 20-30% of the time where in a smaller hatch you can push them in a lot more situations and got more enjoyment from that. A catherham or something along them lines is nothing like what I'm looking for. I want a good hot hatch that not going to cost what it's currently costing to run the 140i is.
RobM77 said:
I'm not convinced any are sufficiently better and more enjoyable than your 140i would be. I did a back to back comparison of my Z4 Coupé with an E46 M3 a few years ago (and I've driven a 135i, 130i etc) and there wasn't really a big difference, plus I preferred the Z4C. Put decent suspension (BIrds?) on the 140i and fit a quaife LSD (which Birds also supply) and I suspect it'd actually be better to drive than an E46 M3.
I think to see a significant difference you'd need to go for a different type of car, for example a Lotus Exige, Caterham etc.
But all the cars you mention there were BMWs with similar powertrains, interiors, control weights and instrumentation?I think to see a significant difference you'd need to go for a different type of car, for example a Lotus Exige, Caterham etc.
Meg vs BMW vs Fiesta ST is chalk and cheeses bar being hatches (with pros and cons all directions in fairness).
1 year old Meg Cup S will be approx £16-17k with negotiation, with a surprisingly low depreciation curve to soften the blow of a loan.
If your preference is a hot hatch and you’re wanting to save money over your M140i, what about an older hot hatch like a Civic Type R? A late Premier Edition EP3 in immaculate condition would set you back no more than £4K, and with another £2K in modifications, you would have a fantastic-spec car.
I would recommend a full exhaust and induction kit with a remap from either TDI or CPL for around 240BHP. Upgrade the suspension with Eibach springs, camber arms and bolts, plus a FRSU alignment. Upgrade the brakes with some decent pads – PBS or Carbone Lorraine are most popular – and some decent fluid. Some decent track day rubber; and I suspect an EP3 to that spec would beat a standard M3 around a track for around half the price.
If you want more performance, a better intake and larger throttle body would see another 15-20BHP. A diff would help at this point. Or if you wanted to go mad, forced induction will comfortably see over 300BHP.
I would recommend a full exhaust and induction kit with a remap from either TDI or CPL for around 240BHP. Upgrade the suspension with Eibach springs, camber arms and bolts, plus a FRSU alignment. Upgrade the brakes with some decent pads – PBS or Carbone Lorraine are most popular – and some decent fluid. Some decent track day rubber; and I suspect an EP3 to that spec would beat a standard M3 around a track for around half the price.
If you want more performance, a better intake and larger throttle body would see another 15-20BHP. A diff would help at this point. Or if you wanted to go mad, forced induction will comfortably see over 300BHP.
Shotdog said:
I want a good hot hatch that not going to cost what it's currently costing to run the 140i is.
Sounds like you need a Megane RS Cup.Forget the banal "hotted up hatch" responses. It really doesn't drive like one, which is the main thing. Out of the box the car is superbly set up, very neutral, very tractable, very adjustable on turn-in. Damping is superbly well judged, even on non-Ohlins.
It is also an incredible track day car (if that takes your fancy) for the money and is very cheap to run on track for the performance / playfulness.
It also has a great reputation for reliability.
Shotdog said:
The main issue is I don't get enough useage out of the car what it costs to own and run so I'm looking for a hot hatch that's fun and cheaper to run. To fit an LSD to the 140i is another £2000. The 140i is blisteringly quick but you get most the fun out of it at licence losing speeds. It's not a car you fully exploit down your local B road so you get most enjoyment out of it say 20-30% of the time where in a smaller hatch you can push them in a lot more situations and got more enjoyment from that. A catherham or something along them lines is nothing like what I'm looking for. I want a good hot hatch that not going to cost what it's currently costing to run the 140i is.
The issue is, the 3 other cars you're looking at can all very easily get you into license-losing territory very quickly too.I'd say that, in a way, you've spoiled yourself. The M140i is a very fast and capable car and, with it being on PCP, you've not had much in the way of maintaining it with it being new and under warranty.
It's not an M car, but it will feel faster than an M3 most of the time.
When you're really wringing the E46's neck and getting the most out of it, you're speedo will be telling you to back off if you wish to keep your license and BMW's M tax on parts and maintenance will keep the numbers in your bank low. Running one is not for the faint-heated so, if you're after not spending much to keep it tip-top, then look elsewhere 'cos the M3 is not the car for you.
The Megane 275 is a fantastic hot-hatch and probably what you're looking for. However, it's still a very quick car and don't think that just because it's down on power compared to an M140i that it wouldn't potentially get you into trouble. If you can look past that, get a test drive booked and see what you think. They are great cars to drive. Strictly speaking, all of these modern hot-hatches are now becoming over-powered and just a numbers game. The Megane still has more than enough but it's all about the driving experience as apposed to straight-line grunt.
The Fiesta ST is the perfect day-to-day hot hatch for me. Compact, fast, fun, cheap to run, etc. It's a modern hatch but doesn't suffer too many silly electrics and driving modes. It's probably the perfect amount of power to enjoy on our roads. It'll still pick up speed quick enough and if you keep on pushing you will be going quicker than you should be in no time. To me, it just feels special at all speeds though, which is a rare trait. However, It is a smaller car than the others that you are considering. They can also be tuned will plenty of options if the standard power is not adequate enough for you.
I own a 2010 Megane Mk3 RS - mapped to 300bhp/300ft/lb. Some observations:
- Standard brake pads are cr@p. Well worth upgrading to some EBC Yellow/Red stuff or similar.
- The MPG will likely be worse than the M140i, and is very very dependent on the air temperature. For example, sat at 60mph on cruise @ 20 degrees outside and it will return near 45mpg, yet at 0 degrees outside you're talking around 31/32...
- The interior is a nice enough place to be, but it's not a touch on the M140i. Much more basic and less well equipped.
- Cup chassis is the one to go for, the LSD is brilliant (and very much needed with a remap!)
- The noise, in my opinion, is a bit lacking. Most people opt to remove the mid-pipe silencer. I've done this and fitted a smaller backbox and it sounds OK, but the F4RT engine just isn't a nice sounding thing unlike the 6 cylinder BMWs. It's got a lovely induction roar at the top end but that's about it!
- Personally I find the suspension a bit too firm for daily use, it can get a bit much around town etc, but it more than makes up for it when you're on a twisty B road
- Standard brake pads are cr@p. Well worth upgrading to some EBC Yellow/Red stuff or similar.
- The MPG will likely be worse than the M140i, and is very very dependent on the air temperature. For example, sat at 60mph on cruise @ 20 degrees outside and it will return near 45mpg, yet at 0 degrees outside you're talking around 31/32...
- The interior is a nice enough place to be, but it's not a touch on the M140i. Much more basic and less well equipped.
- Cup chassis is the one to go for, the LSD is brilliant (and very much needed with a remap!)
- The noise, in my opinion, is a bit lacking. Most people opt to remove the mid-pipe silencer. I've done this and fitted a smaller backbox and it sounds OK, but the F4RT engine just isn't a nice sounding thing unlike the 6 cylinder BMWs. It's got a lovely induction roar at the top end but that's about it!
- Personally I find the suspension a bit too firm for daily use, it can get a bit much around town etc, but it more than makes up for it when you're on a twisty B road
VonSenger said:
Eh? Money pitt, yes can be, dull repmobile?? No way. Have you owned one?
Have driven one extensively, my friend thought it would be a sensible car to replace his evo9 fq360 but should still be on the pace. It was no comparison and was gutless compared to the evo as well as being no sort of event to drive.It was quite a disappointment and he kept it for about 6months before replacing it. As I said imo it is nowhere near as good as it people that love them say they are.
OP if you are trying to save money avoud the e46, they can and likely will throw you some hefty bills. They do go sideways quite well though.
Ahbefive said:
Have driven one extensively, my friend thought it would be a sensible car to replace his evo9 fq360 but should still be on the pace. It was no comparison and was gutless compared to the evo as well as being no sort of event to drive.
It was quite a disappointment and he kept it for about 6months before replacing it. As I said imo it is nowhere near as good as it people that love them say they are.
OP if you are trying to save money avoud the e46, they can and likely will throw you some hefty bills. They do go sideways quite well though.
E46 M3 "gutless" its 216bhp/tonne. It was quite a disappointment and he kept it for about 6months before replacing it. As I said imo it is nowhere near as good as it people that love them say they are.
OP if you are trying to save money avoud the e46, they can and likely will throw you some hefty bills. They do go sideways quite well though.
FQ360 is 258bhp/tonne.
Seriously?
Most hot hatches of old would struggle to get 160bhp/tonne.
I'd say if someone calls a high rpm N/A engine gutless it's because they don't understand how to use the engine. A turbo engine is usually gutless in its last 1,000-1,500rpm whereas a racing n/a is smashing through to the cutout.
You say gutless - I say turbo lag.
Note I drive two turbos currently and have done for a long time but I do enjoy a great N/A. I found the E46 M3 I thrashed round a track huge fun-- more fun than an M4.... (slower sure but fun).
But we didn't, opinions eh. Yes obviously we knew that you had to thrash it silly to get anything out of it, but that is what made it feel gutless for 340bhp.
Also that is a gulf between the evo and the m3 and the torque makes it feel much much faster still.
I know that it would be quicker than a standard fiesta ST and maybe a fraction quicker than the megane but it sure doesn't feel it.
Also that is a gulf between the evo and the m3 and the torque makes it feel much much faster still.
I know that it would be quicker than a standard fiesta ST and maybe a fraction quicker than the megane but it sure doesn't feel it.
Edited by Ahbefive on Monday 5th June 18:31
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