Evo 8 electrical issue
Discussion
Thanks for reading this advance!
Basically the car after its winter hibernation wouldn't start and since then it's had
Fitted new parts as follows:
Clifford alarm
Ignition switch
Starter motor
New starter motor relay
Battery is not even a year old
Then we found the car would start as normal with a bigger relay other than the genuine Mitsubishi micro relays! So does anyone know why this would happen any help would be appreciated!!!!
Basically the car after its winter hibernation wouldn't start and since then it's had
Fitted new parts as follows:
Clifford alarm
Ignition switch
Starter motor
New starter motor relay
Battery is not even a year old
Then we found the car would start as normal with a bigger relay other than the genuine Mitsubishi micro relays! So does anyone know why this would happen any help would be appreciated!!!!
bunsofsteeeel said:
So does anyone know why this would happen any help would be appreciated!!!!
You're asking why you replaced a list of expensive parts to try to cure a problem that was fixed by replacing a relay? No, I don't know either. My best guess is that you didn't diagnose the problem before you tried fixing it.GreenV8S said:
bunsofsteeeel said:
So does anyone know why this would happen any help would be appreciated!!!!
You're asking why you replaced a list of expensive parts to try to cure a problem that was fixed by replacing a relay? No, I don't know either. My best guess is that you didn't diagnose the problem before you tried fixing it.
GreenV8S said:
Do you know what that relay is used for?
Perhaps the original relay was defective, or the relay socket is corroded/loose and not operating the relay properly, or some combination. You can get some pretty weird behaviour if the relay isn't closing the contacts with enough force.
I'm not sure tbh but I can't try and find out.Perhaps the original relay was defective, or the relay socket is corroded/loose and not operating the relay properly, or some combination. You can get some pretty weird behaviour if the relay isn't closing the contacts with enough force.
The original relay made a clicking noise when turning the car over and I had a spare from a previous car and that did the same so that's why they were overlooked for awhile, I know it's not corroded but I will double check the contacts aren't loose thanks
A standard relay in the past did work and there is no reason why a standard relay should not be used now
I think that the terminals on the ends of those jumper leads that you have made are making a better contact with the terminals in the relay plate than the terminals of a standard relay are making. Have you connected a standard relay to the ends of those jumper leads?
If you haven't connected a standard relay to the ends of those jumper leads that you have made - do so now and see if it works, if it works you will have proven that the problem is being caused by bad connections between the standard relay terminals and the relay plate terminals.
Often it is found that jumper lead terminals go a little deeper into the relay plate terminals than the depth a relay terminal will go and in doing so they do cure a bad connection problem
I think that the terminals on the ends of those jumper leads that you have made are making a better contact with the terminals in the relay plate than the terminals of a standard relay are making. Have you connected a standard relay to the ends of those jumper leads?
If you haven't connected a standard relay to the ends of those jumper leads that you have made - do so now and see if it works, if it works you will have proven that the problem is being caused by bad connections between the standard relay terminals and the relay plate terminals.
Often it is found that jumper lead terminals go a little deeper into the relay plate terminals than the depth a relay terminal will go and in doing so they do cure a bad connection problem
Alpha Omega said:
A standard relay in the past did work and there is no reason why a standard relay should not be used now
I think that the terminals on the ends of those jumper leads that you have made are making a better contact with the terminals in the relay plate than the terminals of a standard relay are making. Have you connected a standard relay to the ends of those jumper leads?
If you haven't connected a standard relay to the ends of those jumper leads that you have made - do so now and see if it works, if it works you will have proven that the problem is being caused by bad connections between the standard relay terminals and the relay plate terminals.
Often it is found that jumper lead terminals go a little deeper into the relay plate terminals than the depth a relay terminal will go and in doing so they do cure a bad connection problem
Thanks alpha i will give that a go!! I'm upset with myself that i didn't think to try that before lolI think that the terminals on the ends of those jumper leads that you have made are making a better contact with the terminals in the relay plate than the terminals of a standard relay are making. Have you connected a standard relay to the ends of those jumper leads?
If you haven't connected a standard relay to the ends of those jumper leads that you have made - do so now and see if it works, if it works you will have proven that the problem is being caused by bad connections between the standard relay terminals and the relay plate terminals.
Often it is found that jumper lead terminals go a little deeper into the relay plate terminals than the depth a relay terminal will go and in doing so they do cure a bad connection problem
Alpha Omega said:
Don't let not knowing bother you, I used to know nothing until I knew something
If the fault is being caused by the relay holders terminals you should be able to buy new ones and replace them
Cheers I will let you know how I get on later fingers crossed! If the fault is being caused by the relay holders terminals you should be able to buy new ones and replace them
Edited by Alpha Omega on Wednesday 7th June 12:55
OK. The other possibility is that the bigger relay is being wired in a different way to how the standard relay is wired, the only way that I and very likely anyone else will be able to help you some more is if you can post some images of the standard relay and the bigger relays terminals layout and how you are wiring the bigger relay
I post the above as I have a feeling that in wiring the bigger relay incorrectly you could possibly be making a circuit that isn't going through the bigger relays contacts.
When you mention the car wont start,do you mean it wont crank over or will crank over but not fire?
I will check back later or early in the morning
The bigger relays contacts are terminals 30 and 87 and the bigger relays coil terminals are 85 and 86, perhaps you will be able to work out what the standard relays terminals are and then connect the bigger relay using the same configuration
I post the above as I have a feeling that in wiring the bigger relay incorrectly you could possibly be making a circuit that isn't going through the bigger relays contacts.
When you mention the car wont start,do you mean it wont crank over or will crank over but not fire?
I will check back later or early in the morning
The bigger relays contacts are terminals 30 and 87 and the bigger relays coil terminals are 85 and 86, perhaps you will be able to work out what the standard relays terminals are and then connect the bigger relay using the same configuration
Alpha Omega said:
OK. The other possibility is that the bigger relay is being wired in a different way to how the standard relay is wired, the only way that I and very likely anyone else will be able to help you some more is if you can post some images of the standard relay and the bigger relays terminals layout and how you are wiring the bigger relay
I post the above as I have a feeling that in wiring the bigger relay incorrectly you could possibly be making a circuit that isn't going through the bigger relays contacts.
When you mention the car wont start,do you mean it wont crank over or will crank over but not fire?
I will check back later or early in the morning
The bigger relays contacts are terminals 30 and 87 and the bigger relays coil terminals are 85 and 86, perhaps you will be able to work out what the standard relays terminals are and then connect the bigger relay using the same configuration
I will get some pictures up tomorrow of the relays, I know the layout of the pins are the same on both relays and that's how they have been wired, the car won't crank over at all just one audible clonk when I turn the key that's it, that's above my head tbh mate but I will have to learn, I did speak to a auto electrian this afternoon who said it sounds like a voltage drop somewhere, I've got him booked to see me in a weeks time but if I can sort it before then would be a bonus, thanks for your help mate appreciate it.I post the above as I have a feeling that in wiring the bigger relay incorrectly you could possibly be making a circuit that isn't going through the bigger relays contacts.
When you mention the car wont start,do you mean it wont crank over or will crank over but not fire?
I will check back later or early in the morning
The bigger relays contacts are terminals 30 and 87 and the bigger relays coil terminals are 85 and 86, perhaps you will be able to work out what the standard relays terminals are and then connect the bigger relay using the same configuration
OK. Thats good that you know the pin outs of both relays and that you are wiring the big relay in the exact same way as the small standard relay
You have now proven that the problem has nothing to do with the terminals in the relay plate/holder
There is now only 1 possible difference between those 2 relays and it is only you that can check this out
If you measure the coil resistance of the standard relay and then measure the coil resistance of the big relay there is very likely going to be a difference in those resistance figures
If the big relays coil is a lower resistance than the standard relays coil it will not take as much power/AMPS to operate it
If there is a wiring fault somewhere, it is possible that the big relay that takes less power will still operate with that wiring fault
You can do some fault finding by testing for what voltage you are getting at the standard relays coil terminals when cranking, you will obviously need that standard relay to be connected up with those leads you have made up, I think you will find that the voltage is breaking down and is not pulling the standard relays contacts to the closed position
Now do the same test with the big relay connected, see what voltage is at the big relays coil terminals when the engine is cranking
I am as certain as I can be that there can't be any other differences between those 2 relays that will give you the Work/No Work situation that you are getting
Some relays have a diode or a resistor wired internally across the coil terminals and they do change the resistance of the coil, this is not something you need to be bothered about right now
If I am correct with the above, you need to be looking for corroded terminals in a plug or damage to the wiring
You have now proven that the problem has nothing to do with the terminals in the relay plate/holder
There is now only 1 possible difference between those 2 relays and it is only you that can check this out
If you measure the coil resistance of the standard relay and then measure the coil resistance of the big relay there is very likely going to be a difference in those resistance figures
If the big relays coil is a lower resistance than the standard relays coil it will not take as much power/AMPS to operate it
If there is a wiring fault somewhere, it is possible that the big relay that takes less power will still operate with that wiring fault
You can do some fault finding by testing for what voltage you are getting at the standard relays coil terminals when cranking, you will obviously need that standard relay to be connected up with those leads you have made up, I think you will find that the voltage is breaking down and is not pulling the standard relays contacts to the closed position
Now do the same test with the big relay connected, see what voltage is at the big relays coil terminals when the engine is cranking
I am as certain as I can be that there can't be any other differences between those 2 relays that will give you the Work/No Work situation that you are getting
Some relays have a diode or a resistor wired internally across the coil terminals and they do change the resistance of the coil, this is not something you need to be bothered about right now
If I am correct with the above, you need to be looking for corroded terminals in a plug or damage to the wiring
bunsofsteeeel said:
the car won't crank over at all just one audible clonk when I turn the key that's it
If the sound is coming from the general vicinity of the engine then that might be the starter solenoid energizing but not being able to fully engage. There are various potential causes of that and it might be a combination of any of them:- flat battery not supplying the required current and voltage
- wiring resistance between the battery +ve and solenoid main power terminal
- poor ground at the engine
- poor ground at the battery
- damaged or worn starter requiring more force than normal to engage
- wiring fault in the circuit from the battery, through the ignition switch, immobiliser etc to starter motor solenoid control terminal
Edited by GreenV8S on Wednesday 7th June 20:52
Alpha Omega said:
OK. Thats good that you know the pin outs of both relays and that you are wiring the big relay in the exact same way as the small standard relay
You have now proven that the problem has nothing to do with the terminals in the relay plate/holder
There is now only 1 possible difference between those 2 relays and it is only you that can check this out
If you measure the coil resistance of the standard relay and then measure the coil resistance of the big relay there is very likely going to be a difference in those resistance figures
If the big relays coil is a lower resistance than the standard relays coil it will not take as much power/AMPS to operate it
If there is a wiring fault somewhere, it is possible that the big relay that takes less power will still operate with that wiring fault
You can do some fault finding by testing for what voltage you are getting at the standard relays coil terminals when cranking, you will obviously need that standard relay to be connected up with those leads you have made up, I think you will find that the voltage is breaking down and is not pulling the standard relays contacts to the closed position
Now do the same test with the big relay connected, see what voltage is at the big relays coil terminals when the engine is cranking
I am as certain as I can be that there can't be any other differences between those 2 relays that will give you the Work/No Work situation that you are getting
Some relays have a diode or a resistor wired internally across the coil terminals and they do change the resistance of the coil, this is not something you need to be bothered about right now
If I am correct with the above, you need to be looking for corroded terminals in a plug or damage to the wiring
That seems like the most plausible answer I will have to get my multimeter on it and check to see what's going on, I'm away this weekend so I will have to get it done next week but I will come back on and let you know how I got on!You have now proven that the problem has nothing to do with the terminals in the relay plate/holder
There is now only 1 possible difference between those 2 relays and it is only you that can check this out
If you measure the coil resistance of the standard relay and then measure the coil resistance of the big relay there is very likely going to be a difference in those resistance figures
If the big relays coil is a lower resistance than the standard relays coil it will not take as much power/AMPS to operate it
If there is a wiring fault somewhere, it is possible that the big relay that takes less power will still operate with that wiring fault
You can do some fault finding by testing for what voltage you are getting at the standard relays coil terminals when cranking, you will obviously need that standard relay to be connected up with those leads you have made up, I think you will find that the voltage is breaking down and is not pulling the standard relays contacts to the closed position
Now do the same test with the big relay connected, see what voltage is at the big relays coil terminals when the engine is cranking
I am as certain as I can be that there can't be any other differences between those 2 relays that will give you the Work/No Work situation that you are getting
Some relays have a diode or a resistor wired internally across the coil terminals and they do change the resistance of the coil, this is not something you need to be bothered about right now
If I am correct with the above, you need to be looking for corroded terminals in a plug or damage to the wiring
GreenV8S said:
bunsofsteeeel said:
the car won't crank over at all just one audible clonk when I turn the key that's it
If the sound is coming from the general vicinity of the engine then that might be the starter solenoid energizing but not being able to fully engage. There are various potential causes of that and it might be a combination of any of them:- flat battery not supplying the required current and voltage
- wiring resistance between the battery +ve and solenoid main power terminal
- poor ground at the engine
- poor ground at the battery
- damaged or worn starter requiring more force than normal to engage
- wiring fault in the circuit from the battery, through the ignition switch, immobiliser etc to starter motor solenoid control terminal
Edited by GreenV8S on Wednesday 7th June 20:52
evoivboy said:
Are you a member here? http://www.lancerregister.com/home.php
Amazed if not, they will know
Been a member for 11 years but no one can help.Amazed if not, they will know
A relay is basicaly a switch controled by something else.
There is two part for it:
The control the coil and the contact.
The conatct have a deffined current capacity and they age..
1) Can you test the control part of the "small" relay outside of the car?
2) Can you test the resistance of the "small" relay?
3) can you by pass the relay's contact as a test?
On a Caterham, there is the welknown "clck" which happen when the relay does not let enough current go to the starter motor. There is a "high" resistance somewhere in the circuit.
The starter motor would "click" but does not spin.
There is three ways to solve this issue:
1) fitting a higher current rated relay
2) fiting a less power hungry starter motor
3) a combination of both which I have done.
hope this helps
Jack
There is two part for it:
The control the coil and the contact.
The conatct have a deffined current capacity and they age..
1) Can you test the control part of the "small" relay outside of the car?
2) Can you test the resistance of the "small" relay?
3) can you by pass the relay's contact as a test?
On a Caterham, there is the welknown "clck" which happen when the relay does not let enough current go to the starter motor. There is a "high" resistance somewhere in the circuit.
The starter motor would "click" but does not spin.
There is three ways to solve this issue:
1) fitting a higher current rated relay
2) fiting a less power hungry starter motor
3) a combination of both which I have done.
hope this helps
Jack
Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff