E9x 3-Series...overpriced and overrated?
E9x 3-Series...overpriced and overrated?
Author
Discussion

white_goodman

Original Poster:

4,340 posts

209 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
This isn't another BMW-bashing thread, more of an observation on very strong used values. People have complained on PH before about prices of nice 6-pot E46 3-Series (especially coupes) being rather strong for what they are and doing some research recently, E9x values seem to be going the same way.

We have run our diesel Grand Voyager for three years now and as a family wagon it has done us proud. However, it is pretty huge to park, not that great on fuel and not a very interesting drive. Now our two children are a bit older, we don't need quite as much space for baby paraphernalia like cribs, travel cots and pushchairs too. I have been thinking for a while about what to replace it with and I keep coming back to an E9x 3-Series Touring. Diesel seems to make sense for family motoring but I have a pathological hatred of 4-pot diesels, so 330d/335d, probably automatic and the M Sport models look pretty slick. My wife also likes the look of these (she says the 5-Series Touring is a little too big) but looking around at prices, you seem to get way less 3-Series Touring for your money than anything else comparable. Even C-Class Estates are cheaper! Now, I know that the market for smallish 6-pot diesel estate cars is pretty limited but the C-Class is the obvious alternative. I had an old 5-pot diesel W202 (1999) estate once and it was great. Very comfortable, refined and practical, albeit very rusty and not that exciting of a drive. I really like the W203 (early-2000s) C-Classes as they're a bit more dynamic to drive but a little old now. The newer shape (W204?) is no doubt pretty decent but I hate the AMG Sports with those stupid "bling" massive Mercedes badges on the grille which seem the most common and the SE models with the star on the bonnet (which is a traditional Mercedes feature that I rather like) are a little plain. As for Audis, I'm not really an Audi kind of a guy.

Likewise, as much as I enjoy my current MINI Cooper commuter, I'm kind of bored with 4 cylinder engines and FWD after owning many FWD 4-pots and fancy something a bit different. I've lusted after an E92 M3 for around 10 years now but the running costs are far too rich for me. However, at the moment, a lesser E92 Coupe is right at the top of my list. I had an E30 325i back in the day, which was fantastic and I love BMW's straight six engines, so I'm thinking either a manual 325i or 330i MSport. These seem a bit less common and not as quick as the 335is but I have read about several reliability issues with the 335is and I would prefer a naturally-aspirated motor anyway. The values of 325i/330i Coupes are similarly elevated compared to comparable vehicles even at high miles though.

An E92 Coupe would also be a lot more practical than my MINI i.e. we could spread the miles between the two cars a bit more, as it's a real squeeze getting the kid's seats into the MINI and the boot is non-existent (plus the fact that I don't want to drive the Grand Voyager to work, whereas a 330d/335d Touring, I wouldn't mind)!

Coming from Vauxhalls and Peugeots, my E30 was a revelation in terms of build quality and reliability but although my personal experience is limited, I hear that modern BMW reliability and build quality isn't really that great.

So are E9x 3-Series overrated and overpriced with better options out there for the money or are they relatively expensive because they are the best cars of their type out there?

daemon

38,051 posts

215 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
white_goodman said:
Stuff

So are E9x 3-Series overrated and overpriced with better options out there for the money or are they relatively expensive because they are the best cars of their type out there?
Supply v demand. If you're looking at a 330d M Sport auto of which there are very few, then prices will be disproportionately higher than a 318d / 320d M Sport (of which there are many).

Its like Golfs. Year old 1.6TDI can be had for around £11,000. Year old GTD will be £19,000.

DanielSan

19,584 posts

185 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Percentage wise they've lost the same value as Vauxhall's/Peugeot's/Ford's etc they're just more expensive to buy in the first place. Add in any rarer cars such as a manual 335 and the prices will hold stronger.

Nickbrapp

5,277 posts

148 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Buy a Volvo with a t5 engine

white_goodman

Original Poster:

4,340 posts

209 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Nickbrapp said:
Buy a Volvo with a t5 engine
V70? I don't mind Volvos but my wife would no doubt find a V70 a bit too big and I expect a duller drive like the Chrysler?

JamesRR

283 posts

103 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
If you go the Volvo route, maybe a V50 would be more appropriate. It's smaller than a 3er Touring though, not sure if that would be a problem. Volvo didn't really make a 3 series sized estate until the V60, which might be a bit pricy yet for a nicely specced R Design with a good engine.
With regards the drive being dull, no it's not going to have the natural handling finesse of the RWD Beemer, but it's not bad. I drive a C30, which I find to have quite nicely direct steering for a reasonably heavy FWD car. I've never driven a Voyager but I'd confidently say the Volvo will drive a lot better.

BlueHave

4,713 posts

126 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
The 3 series is a car in demand. You could if you buy a well looked after and well spec'd one drive it for a whole year put on 10k miles and sell it for around what you paid.

It's happened a few times to mates with 335 and 330 from 2006 - 2010. They both bought solid examples in a nice safe colour with sat nav, bluetooth, leather etc and sold it for more than they paid after 14 months and the other after 18 months

It happens with other marques. I sold a top spec Audi for £1500 more than I paid after two years and about 23k miles.

If it's a car thats a rare spec and it's sought after then people will pay a premium. In my case I didn't have to do much selling as the car sold itself.

white_goodman

Original Poster:

4,340 posts

209 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
JamesRR said:
If you go the Volvo route, maybe a V50 would be more appropriate. It's smaller than a 3er Touring though, not sure if that would be a problem. Volvo didn't really make a 3 series sized estate until the V60, which might be a bit pricy yet for a nicely specced R Design with a good engine.
With regards the drive being dull, no it's not going to have the natural handling finesse of the RWD Beemer, but it's not bad. I drive a C30, which I find to have quite nicely direct steering for a reasonably heavy FWD car. I've never driven a Voyager but I'd confidently say the Volvo will drive a lot better.
Haha, no doubt. smile. Did they do the V50 with the T5 diesel? The Voyager is maybe not as bad as you would think to drive but it is a 2 tonne MPV, so it's never going to trouble a Porsche in the handling stakes!

daemon

38,051 posts

215 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
white_goodman said:
JamesRR said:
If you go the Volvo route, maybe a V50 would be more appropriate. It's smaller than a 3er Touring though, not sure if that would be a problem. Volvo didn't really make a 3 series sized estate until the V60, which might be a bit pricy yet for a nicely specced R Design with a good engine.
With regards the drive being dull, no it's not going to have the natural handling finesse of the RWD Beemer, but it's not bad. I drive a C30, which I find to have quite nicely direct steering for a reasonably heavy FWD car. I've never driven a Voyager but I'd confidently say the Volvo will drive a lot better.
Haha, no doubt. smile. Did they do the V50 with the T5 diesel? The Voyager is maybe not as bad as you would think to drive but it is a 2 tonne MPV, so it's never going to trouble a Porsche in the handling stakes!
The T5 diesel would be the D5 (i think).

The T5 is the 2.5 litre turbo petrol variant. Originally it would have had the same engine as the Focus ST (its a Volvo engine) however i think that was revised later.

Good cars - i'd a S40 T5. Very fast - 220BHP and theres an easy +30/40BHP in there with a remap.

Sport spec looks better (IMHO) than the SE, although it was an SE i had.

white_goodman

Original Poster:

4,340 posts

209 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
BlueHave said:
The 3 series is a car in demand. You could if you buy a well looked after and well spec'd one drive it for a whole year put on 10k miles and sell it for around what you paid.

It's happened a few times to mates with 335 and 330 from 2006 - 2010. They both bought solid examples in a nice safe colour with sat nav, bluetooth, leather etc and sold it for more than they paid after 14 months and the other after 18 months

It happens with other marques. I sold a top spec Audi for £1500 more than I paid after two years and about 23k miles.

If it's a car thats a rare spec and it's sought after then people will pay a premium. In my case I didn't have to do much selling as the car sold itself.
OK. Well I guess that's worth considering. I may have to spend a bit more than I wanted to now but the low depreciation could mitigate that down the line. I think it's always been the case with desirable spec 3-Series. I remember E30 325i Sports and E36 328i Sports still fetching crazy money at 10 years old and 100k. The 5-Series although just as good (if not better) never seems to hold its value as well as the 3.

I don't really want a 320d though. Might as well have a newer, lower kms Passat/Mondeo/Octavia Estate! smile


JamesRR

283 posts

103 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
daemon said:
The T5 diesel would be the D5 (i think).

The T5 is the 2.5 litre turbo petrol variant. Originally it would have had the same engine as the Focus ST (its a Volvo engine) however i think that was revised later.

Good cars - i'd a S40 T5. Very fast - 220BHP and theres an easy +30/40BHP in there with a remap.

Sport spec looks better (IMHO) than the SE, although it was an SE i had.
What he said. The equivalent diesel would be the D5, which is a 2.4 turbo five pot in cars of that era, and a cracker by all accounts - sadly I don't have it in my car, the insurance companies wouldn't like that at all at my age! Haha
Also agree about getting a Sport/R-Design, they look a lot better in my opinion.

Shrimpvende

923 posts

110 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
I've had two 3L E9x coupes - a 325D then a facelift 330i. Both were great cars, the diesel was good on fuel, didn't sound bad and was very refined. It didn't do anything wrong in my ownership and I sold it for about a grand less than I paid 2 years/20k later. The 330i had about every option going and looked great, bought it private, used it for 18 months/12k then sold it for almost what I paid. I reckon unless the new owner has put a load of miles on it it's probably only lost another £500-1k since. They were both desirable colours (silver and white) with black leather interiors and the larger option wheels.

If you can buy well (difficult with them becoming rarer) it should hold its value well. The 6 pot/3l engines are more reliable than the 2l's in both petrol and diesel, the 335i being the exception due to turbos and rattly wastegates. From experience SE spec, weird colour combo's and the lighter coloured interiors with wood trim were generally cheaper and took longer to sell, with white/black/silver M Sport cars with big wheels and nav commanding a premium. The pre 2010 iDrive/nav was poor and slow so isn't really worth a premium - it can freeze and be a pain to navigate. The updated system is far better and I was really impressed with the pro nav in my 330i - it had a HD to store music, internet browsing, DVD player, bigger screen etc - definitely worth it, as was the HK sound system over the crappy standard stereo.

Nickbrapp

5,277 posts

148 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Yes they put the D5 5 pot in most things

Here's a v50 for £7k

I just found a great car on Auto Trader:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

And a v60
I just found a great car on Auto Trader:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...


Volvos are also very safe

white_goodman

Original Poster:

4,340 posts

209 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
daemon said:
The T5 diesel would be the D5 (i think).

The T5 is the 2.5 litre turbo petrol variant. Originally it would have had the same engine as the Focus ST (its a Volvo engine) however i think that was revised later.

Good cars - i'd a S40 T5. Very fast - 220BHP and theres an easy +30/40BHP in there with a remap.

Sport spec looks better (IMHO) than the SE, although it was an SE i had.
Ok thanks. They're pretty nice looking cars but I'm not that well up on my Volvos. My uncle has had a 54-plate S40 for several years and it's quite a smart little car but just a 2 litre diesel 4-pot as far as I know (same engine as the Focus)? I didn't realise that you could get them with anything more interesting in them i.e. T5/D5. smile

Nickbrapp

5,277 posts

148 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
What's your budget? There's loads of interesting things outside the Germans.

Although for a good steer i would look towards Ford, but nothing big is going to be a go kart

Stuff like seat Leon or a exeo estate
Peugeot 308
Citroen c5 ( dirt cheap and very nice) or ds5
Peugeot 508
Octavia VRS
Mazda 6

Focus ST estate?

anonymous-user

72 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
From about 2010 onwards, the 6cyl 3er becomes an increasingly rare beast, as the performance and economy (and low tax) of the 4bangers was enough to hook most new buyers back then.

My 2011 335d tourer took me over 12 months to find / wait for, and recently i've been thinking about selling it, and was looking for others online to gauge it's value and yup, there are not many for sale, and even fewer private sellers with one!

daemon

38,051 posts

215 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
white_goodman said:
daemon said:
The T5 diesel would be the D5 (i think).

The T5 is the 2.5 litre turbo petrol variant. Originally it would have had the same engine as the Focus ST (its a Volvo engine) however i think that was revised later.

Good cars - i'd a S40 T5. Very fast - 220BHP and theres an easy +30/40BHP in there with a remap.

Sport spec looks better (IMHO) than the SE, although it was an SE i had.
Ok thanks. They're pretty nice looking cars but I'm not that well up on my Volvos. My uncle has had a 54-plate S40 for several years and it's quite a smart little car but just a 2 litre diesel 4-pot as far as I know (same engine as the Focus)? I didn't realise that you could get them with anything more interesting in them i.e. T5/D5. smile
They were built in conjunction with Ford and Mazda for the mk2 Focus and Mazda3 respectively, so they have common underpinnings.

Wholly the wrong colour combo and SE spec but the only one for sale in the country at the time (Northern Ireland) and just 43K miles on this 2004 T5 SE auto. I had it modded to around 260BHP. It was finished to a very high spec, dual climate, cruise, great sounds system with in dash changer, etc. Indistinguishable from a 1.8 petrol variant other than the exhaust out either side at the back. Great stealth factor and very fast. Bought it for £2,400, ran it for six months and sold it for £2,300.



Made right up to 2012 too...

EDIT - heres a 2012 V50 T5 R Design with sensible miles in grey metallic / two tone leather for £7,975



http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...



Edited by daemon on Monday 19th June 21:30

Mike335i

5,596 posts

120 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
white_goodman said:
...So are E9x 3-Series overrated and overpriced with better options out there for the money or are they relatively expensive because they are the best cars of their type out there?
No, they are in demand because they are really good cars. How many small RWD saloons with larger engines are there for the money?

Mercedes does some and probably comes closest, but they are mostly automatics and seem to be more aimed and luxury cruising rather than performance.

Audi aren't as good to drive. Jaguar never really had an alternative until the XE which is far too new to compare, Alfa Romeo are FWD and the V6 ones are not that quick and are thirsty, Ford Mondeo 2.5T are good but again only FWD and French saloons are more comfort orientated.

Insignia VXR too heavy and AWD only. A VXR8 could be great but are a price bracket above.

Subaru would be great fun, but not really the same target market as a 3 series.

I considered a V40 T5 as they really appealed, but not as sharp a drive I gather. I had already decided to go up to 335i power so they lost their alure.

I spent a lot of time trying to come up with alternatives when I struggled to find a manual 335i. There are not any real alternatives that match it for the money though. As a package it is really good.

Not sure this applies to the 4 cylinder cars though, they are probably quite good but the engines are unremarkable.

Edited by Mike335i on Monday 19th June 21:32


Edited by Mike335i on Monday 19th June 21:33

rallycross

13,607 posts

255 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
They are really good cars if you stick to the 6 cylinder models.
Prices are high because they were expensive new and have good demand used.
330d or 330i are best / sensible Option.
These cars are capable of huge mileages with a fsh.
Make sure you get one with sports seats, the standard SE seats and steering wheel Are horrible.
Best combination is an SE with standard suspension but sports trim.
The M sport suspension is unreasonably hard (even if you get rid of the horrible run flats).
I've owned most E90 models and would recommend 330i manual or 330d auto.


_Rich_

966 posts

190 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
I've got a E92 330i lci, owned for just over two years and I've put 42,000 miles on it myself which now brings the total to 81,000 miles

So far its been one of the most reliable cars I've owned (only an abs sensor failed) its cheap to run, i take it to a specialist and I'm still yet to see a bill over £200 albeit i will need the brakes changing soon, I've only recently replaced the tyres i got nearly 32,000 miles out of a set (i put winters on last year)

Fuel wise according to the computer i average 33mpg on the daily A road commute which does have a few empty roads to open it up, motorway I'm seeing 39mpg

Its reasonably comfortable i have M sport kit on it and have replaced the RFT's for normal michelin tyres.

i have thought about replacing it, but I've not found an allrounder thats RWD, manual, has a decent N/A engine that dosent cost the earth to run.