3 Months In...No Pay Slips/Contract....
Discussion
Hi guys,
After a bit of advice on behalf of the Mrs if anyone can help!
She started working for the manager of a musician about 6 months ago, initially part time alongside another job she had. At that point, her boss (the manager) would pay a small amount of money into her bank every month as payment. From April she became full time PAYE on a proper salary, and was promised a contract etc (she has got a "terms of agreement" document). Since then, she's been paid into her bank account her salary minus tax etc (he sent her an email confirming what the net amount would be) but has had no payslips for the 3 months she's been paid for, and still on contract.
To throw a spanner in the works he's angry that she's seeing me, as i know the guy and we don't particularly get on and he told her that he wanted her full attention on the job and transparency that she wasn't seeing anyone etc. When we found out we were together he said that if she denied it he'd have terminated her employment, and he's been pretty shirty since especially since being asked for the payslips.
First concern is payslips and that PAYE/NIC probably aren't being paid, so advice on that would be appreciated. Secondly, we think he might turn around around day and just say it's not working, she hasn't been professional (seeing me, as we work in the same industry and often at the same events) and that he's terminating her employment. Obviously he'd not have followed any procedure and unfair dismissal would seem obvious, but without a contract etc how is this likely to play out?
Many thanks in advance!
Dom
After a bit of advice on behalf of the Mrs if anyone can help!
She started working for the manager of a musician about 6 months ago, initially part time alongside another job she had. At that point, her boss (the manager) would pay a small amount of money into her bank every month as payment. From April she became full time PAYE on a proper salary, and was promised a contract etc (she has got a "terms of agreement" document). Since then, she's been paid into her bank account her salary minus tax etc (he sent her an email confirming what the net amount would be) but has had no payslips for the 3 months she's been paid for, and still on contract.
To throw a spanner in the works he's angry that she's seeing me, as i know the guy and we don't particularly get on and he told her that he wanted her full attention on the job and transparency that she wasn't seeing anyone etc. When we found out we were together he said that if she denied it he'd have terminated her employment, and he's been pretty shirty since especially since being asked for the payslips.
First concern is payslips and that PAYE/NIC probably aren't being paid, so advice on that would be appreciated. Secondly, we think he might turn around around day and just say it's not working, she hasn't been professional (seeing me, as we work in the same industry and often at the same events) and that he's terminating her employment. Obviously he'd not have followed any procedure and unfair dismissal would seem obvious, but without a contract etc how is this likely to play out?
Many thanks in advance!
Dom
The fact that she has discussed her circumstances with you is neither here nor there when it comes to her rights as an employee. She is entitled to receive payslips for every salary payment she gets (weekly/monthly) and the law states that an employment contract should be in place.
As a taxpayer she needs to know what tax (and NI) is being deducted from her salary and also whether the employer is doing this properly. She can only review this type of detail by looking at her payslips.
It is also highly likely that her employer will need to get her involved in an Automatic Workplace Pension (known as Auto Enrolment). She can't see what is going on on that score without access to her payslips.
It sounds to me that the employer is a bit of a clot and the best course of action may be, in the end, to leave and find an employer who knows and understands their responsibilities.
As a taxpayer she needs to know what tax (and NI) is being deducted from her salary and also whether the employer is doing this properly. She can only review this type of detail by looking at her payslips.
It is also highly likely that her employer will need to get her involved in an Automatic Workplace Pension (known as Auto Enrolment). She can't see what is going on on that score without access to her payslips.
It sounds to me that the employer is a bit of a clot and the best course of action may be, in the end, to leave and find an employer who knows and understands their responsibilities.
With no contract signed you're working in good faith so you're fully at risk of 'termination' or anything else and you don't have an awful lot of comeback. If he doesn't pay and then terminates you could go small claims court for the outstanding amount, saying a de-facto contract exists by merit of the payments he's previously made; but contract is everything.
Sounds like he had designs on her himself, as what she does outside work commitments has got f
k all to do with him. Ring HMRC helpline with her NI number and ask if they are aware of the employment. The answer should tell you if it's dodgy.
Very much sounds like she'd be better off working elsewhere than for a creep. He can sack her because she's got blue shoes on today as she has virtually no rights until she's done 2 years.
k all to do with him. Ring HMRC helpline with her NI number and ask if they are aware of the employment. The answer should tell you if it's dodgy.Very much sounds like she'd be better off working elsewhere than for a creep. He can sack her because she's got blue shoes on today as she has virtually no rights until she's done 2 years.
elanfan said:
Sounds like he had designs on her himself, as what she does outside work commitments has got fk all to do with him. Ring HMRC helpline with her NI number and ask if they are aware of the employment. The answer should tell you if it's dodgy.
Very much sounds like she'd be better off working elsewhere than for a creep. He can sack her because she's got blue shoes on today as she has virtually no rights until she's done 2 years.
If they are paying PAYE then they will have an ERN/PAYE reference number. This is of course shown on payslips etc. What is the employing entity? That may also help track down whether the company is paying correctly.k all to do with him. Ring HMRC helpline with her NI number and ask if they are aware of the employment. The answer should tell you if it's dodgy.Very much sounds like she'd be better off working elsewhere than for a creep. He can sack her because she's got blue shoes on today as she has virtually no rights until she's done 2 years.
swerni said:
Angrybiker said:
With no contract signed you're working in good faith so you're fully at risk of 'termination' or anything else and you don't have an awful lot of comeback. If he doesn't pay and then terminates you could go small claims court for the outstanding amount, saying a de-facto contract exists by merit of the payments he's previously made; but contract is everything.
Really ?I often wonder why people who know nothing about the law offer such confident opinions on here about legal subjects. Anyway, never mind that, here are some pointers: -
(1) The worker in this case already has a contract. A contract can be made by spoken words, by written words, or by the actions of its parties. Only in some specific contexts such as sale of land or guarantee of debts does a contract have to be in writing.
(2). The worker here does not qualify for protection against unfair dismissal because she has not been employed by the employer for a sufficient period of time. If she is dismissed because of, for example, her gender, or because of whistleblowing, she can make a claim regardless of period of service, but absent such exceptional circumstances (I am giving two examples, there are other exceptions) she must work for two years before she obtains unfair dismissal protection.
(3) The worker is not entitled to a written contract. She is entitled to a written statement of specified terms and conditions of employment.
(1) The worker in this case already has a contract. A contract can be made by spoken words, by written words, or by the actions of its parties. Only in some specific contexts such as sale of land or guarantee of debts does a contract have to be in writing.
(2). The worker here does not qualify for protection against unfair dismissal because she has not been employed by the employer for a sufficient period of time. If she is dismissed because of, for example, her gender, or because of whistleblowing, she can make a claim regardless of period of service, but absent such exceptional circumstances (I am giving two examples, there are other exceptions) she must work for two years before she obtains unfair dismissal protection.
(3) The worker is not entitled to a written contract. She is entitled to a written statement of specified terms and conditions of employment.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 22 June 05:13
Eric Mc said:
... the law states that an employment contract should be in place.
...
You are perhaps confused by the statutory requirement for a statement setting out some terms and conditions. You are perhaps falling into the common errors of (1) assuming that a contract is not a contract unless it is embodied in a document, and (2) mistaking the statutory statement for a contract of employment. ...
The statutory statement is evidence of what the contractual terms are. The contract itself may have arisen from a conversation, or from conduct. When the parties agree a written contract, that may and often does contain within it the statement of terms required by statute.
Some employees have an all singing and all dancing written contract running to many pages of text. Some simply have a page or so setting out the statutory terms. Some have a letter. Some have a nod or a handshake. In some cases you can only tell that there is a contract because the parties are perfoming it.
swerni said:
Angrybiker said:
With no contract signed you're working in good faith so you're fully at risk of 'termination' or anything else and you don't have an awful lot of comeback. If he doesn't pay and then terminates you could go small claims court for the outstanding amount, saying a de-facto contract exists by merit of the payments he's previously made; but contract is everything.
Really ?Thanks everyone - seems it's a complicated area!
After a demand for the payslips yesterday morning he actually came back with them in the afternoon...I'm guessing he went away and sort it out. He's even given her one for the end of this month which seems strange, but hey ho. Whether he's paying the tax is the next question, but with the payslips i'd guess she atleast has something to show to HMRC should it turn out he's not paying correctly?
She does have a statement of terms, and I understand that's all she's legally obliged to. Interesting she could be fired with essentially no protection, you learn something every day. Thanks again all
Dom
After a demand for the payslips yesterday morning he actually came back with them in the afternoon...I'm guessing he went away and sort it out. He's even given her one for the end of this month which seems strange, but hey ho. Whether he's paying the tax is the next question, but with the payslips i'd guess she atleast has something to show to HMRC should it turn out he's not paying correctly?
She does have a statement of terms, and I understand that's all she's legally obliged to. Interesting she could be fired with essentially no protection, you learn something every day. Thanks again all
Dom
Zeemax_Mini said:
with the payslips i'd guess she atleast has something to show to HMRC should it turn out he's not paying correctly?
Check with HMRC that he's actually paying the tax to them. If it turns out he's not, I believe it will be her responsibility to pay the outstanding monies based on a colleagues experience.It is not really all that complicated, but things can seem confusing when people who mean well but know little or nothing pop up here and give duff advice.
As for employment protection, there are some people called Tories who have decided that it should be OK to fire people more or less at will and not offer those people any protection. Even if an employee does have a claim he or she has to pay a chunk of cash to a tribunal in order to make the claim. This is often when the (now ex) employee is unemployed and skint. This is the sort of thing that King John at Runnymede in 1215 would have said was definitely not selling, delaying or denying right or justice. Oh no. No, Sirree.
There are all sorts of things that Tories do that are not great if you are anyone other than a hedge fund owner.
But, hey, people keep voting for them, so democracy prevails. The will of the people (or of the three or for of the six or seven of the people that could be arsed to express a view) cannot be gainsaid.
As for employment protection, there are some people called Tories who have decided that it should be OK to fire people more or less at will and not offer those people any protection. Even if an employee does have a claim he or she has to pay a chunk of cash to a tribunal in order to make the claim. This is often when the (now ex) employee is unemployed and skint. This is the sort of thing that King John at Runnymede in 1215 would have said was definitely not selling, delaying or denying right or justice. Oh no. No, Sirree.
There are all sorts of things that Tories do that are not great if you are anyone other than a hedge fund owner.
But, hey, people keep voting for them, so democracy prevails. The will of the people (or of the three or for of the six or seven of the people that could be arsed to express a view) cannot be gainsaid.
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