Car "Rallies" in Germany
Discussion
I have a query. It's come to my attention whilst planning an event that Germany does not allow "street racing" or "rallies".
Now, the tricky bit is, I can find no definition for the latter. The former is obvious, the latter not so much.
Obviously something like Gumball/Modball is quite different to a few friends driving together to watch a race. I see number of companies offering "driving tours" through Germany, so does anyone know the legal distinction, if any?
One would have hoped if you were obeying the rules of the road over there that you would not cause any issues, but it's obviously better to find out in advance.
Now, the tricky bit is, I can find no definition for the latter. The former is obvious, the latter not so much.
Obviously something like Gumball/Modball is quite different to a few friends driving together to watch a race. I see number of companies offering "driving tours" through Germany, so does anyone know the legal distinction, if any?
One would have hoped if you were obeying the rules of the road over there that you would not cause any issues, but it's obviously better to find out in advance.
The Deutsche Motor Sport Bund is the German equivalent of the MSA (Motor Sports Association) and governs such activities in Germany. This is the link to a search for 'touring assembly' (which seems to be what you're intending) on the MSA website, I imagine the DMSB can provide similar information:
https://www.msauk.org/Search-Results?strSearchTerm...
https://www.msauk.org/Search-Results?strSearchTerm...
James-x4q5z said:
I have a query. It's come to my attention whilst planning an event that Germany does not allow "street racing" or "rallies".
Nor does the UK, of course.James-x4q5z said:
Obviously something like Gumball/Modball is quite different to a few friends driving together to watch a race. I see number of companies offering "driving tours" through Germany, so does anyone know the legal distinction, if any?
One would have hoped if you were obeying the rules of the road over there that you would not cause any issues, but it's obviously better to find out in advance.
The difference is going to be between a group of people travelling in the same direction at the same time, or there being some against-the-clock/each-other element to it.One would have hoped if you were obeying the rules of the road over there that you would not cause any issues, but it's obviously better to find out in advance.
Just because somebody offers something, doesn't mean what they're offering is legal, of course.
Well a "driving tour" is just that, you drive across Germany on a predetermined route.
A "rallye" would mean that you also have a speed goal you want to archieve and that would make it motorsport and therefore illegal.
No one will say anything against you driving with your mates in a convoy as long as you stick to the rules.
A "rallye" would mean that you also have a speed goal you want to archieve and that would make it motorsport and therefore illegal.
No one will say anything against you driving with your mates in a convoy as long as you stick to the rules.
James-x4q5z said:
I have a query. It's come to my attention whilst planning an event that Germany does not allow "street racing" or "rallies".
Now, the tricky bit is, I can find no definition for the latter. The former is obvious, the latter not so much.
Obviously something like Gumball/Modball is quite different to a few friends driving together to watch a race. I see number of companies offering "driving tours" through Germany, so does anyone know the legal distinction, if any?
One would have hoped if you were obeying the rules of the road over there that you would not cause any issues, but it's obviously better to find out in advance.
I've been involved in litigation in Germany about this. There is a definition involving [X] number of cars travelling together. From memory, it's in the StVO. I may have access to the details later today. Now, the tricky bit is, I can find no definition for the latter. The former is obvious, the latter not so much.
Obviously something like Gumball/Modball is quite different to a few friends driving together to watch a race. I see number of companies offering "driving tours" through Germany, so does anyone know the legal distinction, if any?
One would have hoped if you were obeying the rules of the road over there that you would not cause any issues, but it's obviously better to find out in advance.
tektas said:
A "rallye" would mean that you also have a speed goal you want to archieve and that would make it motorsport and therefore illegal.
No one will say anything against you driving with your mates in a convoy as long as you stick to the rules.
Common sense would agree with you - but I have never relied on the law in any country to use common sense.No one will say anything against you driving with your mates in a convoy as long as you stick to the rules.
Like you say, I can't imagine it could possibly be illegal for a group of friends or club members to drive together across Europe. But it is something I much rather find out earlier, rather than later.
I've organised touring assemblies in the UK and I would imagine similar regulations apply in Germany; you'll need to stress the 'non-competitive' aspect and also that though you may provide a route with common starting and finishing locations, drivers are free to deviate from it. It's a bit of a PITA when all you want to do is get from A to B but not too onerous - as you say, better safe than sorry.
"Shmee" got stopped and fined in Germany during a Modball rally or similar as I recall, for some reason they'd got separated from the rest of the group or were on a diversion of some sort, anyway they weren't on the "approved" or "allowed" route and of course being in a liveried car, stood out like a sore thumb to the German police. As I recall despite the fact they hadn't broken any laws, because "zey are not permitted to be on zis road" they got fined. Despite being legal.
Makes my head explode as the stupidity of some countries, puts me off ever wanting to visit Germany.
Makes my head explode as the stupidity of some countries, puts me off ever wanting to visit Germany.
years ago on the Cannoball the police went very draconian. i.e woke up at the hotel in munich, with 2 helicopters hovering overhead and about 100 coppers checking every car and driver. A few didn't make it out of Germany....spent th night under house arrest in the hamburg Hilton
They really don't like events.
I avoided it all by removing stickers
They really don't like events.
I avoided it all by removing stickers
Riley Blue said:
I've organised touring assemblies in the UK and I would imagine similar regulations apply in Germany; you'll need to stress the 'non-competitive' aspect and also that though you may provide a route with common starting and finishing locations, drivers are free to deviate from it. It's a bit of a PITA when all you want to do is get from A to B but not too onerous - as you say, better safe than sorry.
Um, what regulations apply in the UK regarding 'touring assemblies'? I actually managed to get a mail back from the German police. Basically if they get a sniff of "competition", they will have a problem. So no sponsors on cars, funny liveries, that sort of thing. Annoyingly they also don't like "communication between vehicles" which is a pain, because any trip I do with friends I think bringing a few radios is essential both for safety and to keep you occupied.
I am going to apply common sense and assume yeah, if you turn up in a bright McLaren with stickers all over it, that's a problem.
The shame is most of us on here probably dislike the ModBall/Gumball crowd as much as anyone else, but evidently the Germans fail to distinguish between us and them.
Annoying, as otherwise I tend to love driving through Germany and have never had any issues before. Many, many moons ago I did organise a rally into Germany with about 15 reliant robins. We parked them in the middle of Berlin, right by the Brandenburg Gate. There was a diplomatic thing going on, police everywhere. They were very relaxed about it to be fair to them.
I am going to apply common sense and assume yeah, if you turn up in a bright McLaren with stickers all over it, that's a problem.
The shame is most of us on here probably dislike the ModBall/Gumball crowd as much as anyone else, but evidently the Germans fail to distinguish between us and them.
Annoying, as otherwise I tend to love driving through Germany and have never had any issues before. Many, many moons ago I did organise a rally into Germany with about 15 reliant robins. We parked them in the middle of Berlin, right by the Brandenburg Gate. There was a diplomatic thing going on, police everywhere. They were very relaxed about it to be fair to them.
Olivera said:
Riley Blue said:
I've organised touring assemblies in the UK and I would imagine similar regulations apply in Germany; you'll need to stress the 'non-competitive' aspect and also that though you may provide a route with common starting and finishing locations, drivers are free to deviate from it. It's a bit of a PITA when all you want to do is get from A to B but not too onerous - as you say, better safe than sorry.
Um, what regulations apply in the UK regarding 'touring assemblies'? https://www.msauk.org/Search-Results?strSearchTerm...
insurance_jon said:
years ago on the Cannoball the police went very draconian. i.e woke up at the hotel in munich, with 2 helicopters hovering overhead and about 100 coppers checking every car and driver. A few didn't make it out of Germany....spent th night under house arrest in the hamburg Hilton
They really don't like events.
I avoided it all by removing stickers
Something happened on a far less grand scale in 2007 on the Scumball3000. Draconian initial response, which became less severe as the day drew on and they became aware of the television cameras. Of the first five cars out (inspected on the bridge over the Mercedes test track and the river), two were condemned to be squashed after being sent for a bogus TUV.They really don't like events.
I avoided it all by removing stickers
The inspections seen on TV/DVD were pretty trivial, but they were determined to stop what they considered to be an illegal race through their country and it could all have been very different.
James-x4q5z said:
I actually managed to get a mail back from the German police. Basically if they get a sniff of "competition", they will have a problem. So no sponsors on cars, funny liveries, that sort of thing. Annoyingly they also don't like "communication between vehicles" which is a pain, because any trip I do with friends I think bringing a few radios is essential both for safety and to keep you occupied.
Roaming charges have been scrapped so mobiles much cheaper.Or a radio with Bluetooth headset and stash it out of sight - would look like a mobile phone user?
James-x4q5z said:
any trip I do with friends I think bringing a few radios is essential both for safety and to keep you occupied.
.
Why do you need to be "occupied" when driving ?.
Not sure how a radio is a safety benefit either ,use a mobile phone for a genuine emergency......
I've driven all over Europe single handed and didn't die.
lucido grigio said:
Why do you need to be "occupied" when driving ?
Not sure how a radio is a safety benefit either ,use a mobile phone for a genuine emergency......
I've driven all over Europe single handed and didn't die.
Banter, chat between cars. Which exit to take, stopping for fuel, etc. If you have multiple cars then it's easier than mobile calls.Not sure how a radio is a safety benefit either ,use a mobile phone for a genuine emergency......
I've driven all over Europe single handed and didn't die.
Orange had a system in the 2000s in France called push to talk - a walkie-talkie type system. I don't think it caught on. It had a very quick connect time.
Vaud said:
Banter, chat between cars. Which exit to take, stopping for fuel, etc. If you have multiple cars then it's easier than mobile calls.
Orange had a system in the 2000s in France called push to talk - a walkie-talkie type system. I don't think it caught on. It had a very quick connect time.
That's probably why I ended up doing my own thing as initially I went on trips as part of a group of RS1600is with walkie talkies and I Orange had a system in the 2000s in France called push to talk - a walkie-talkie type system. I don't think it caught on. It had a very quick connect time.
didn't need the banter putting me off and luckily the break downs weren't that often.
I won't go into the engine blow up for the bloke with no breakdown insurance in Belgium.....wasn't me.
The organiser of said trips became Nurburgring obsessed and has continued going every year since 2006 ,I didn't want to and branched
out to further afield.
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