Another Tenancy Question
Discussion
Discussing today a Shorthold Tenancy issue with a younger member of my staff - and something he said did not seem right, but I maybe overthinking it!
He rented a house - through an agent as the L/L lives on the other side of the country. He was always on time with rent (I assume) and always obtained permission to do stuff (have Sky fitted etc).
He gave six weeks notice, instead of the minimum one month, and vacated. He did all the cleaning laid out in the tenancy agreement (carpets dome professionally etc). All in all, from what he says, by the book. A model tenant so to speak.
Agent did a check out inspection and found one issue - the oil tank not as full as it was on move in. Fair enough he said, and offered to sort it, thinking he would then get his deposit back in full.
It appears the L/L has then paid a visit and carried out their own inspection. The L/L has a huge list of faults (many of which my employee says are false) and is claiming the complete deposit to be held back.
Regardless of whether the agent steps in, and whether my employee raises a dispute, my question is can the L/L do his own inspection having already instructed the agent to do one? My initial response was no, but if I were the L/L I would like to think I could, as that contract is between the agent and the L/L - but like I said am I over thinking it?
Thoughts?
He rented a house - through an agent as the L/L lives on the other side of the country. He was always on time with rent (I assume) and always obtained permission to do stuff (have Sky fitted etc).
He gave six weeks notice, instead of the minimum one month, and vacated. He did all the cleaning laid out in the tenancy agreement (carpets dome professionally etc). All in all, from what he says, by the book. A model tenant so to speak.
Agent did a check out inspection and found one issue - the oil tank not as full as it was on move in. Fair enough he said, and offered to sort it, thinking he would then get his deposit back in full.
It appears the L/L has then paid a visit and carried out their own inspection. The L/L has a huge list of faults (many of which my employee says are false) and is claiming the complete deposit to be held back.
Regardless of whether the agent steps in, and whether my employee raises a dispute, my question is can the L/L do his own inspection having already instructed the agent to do one? My initial response was no, but if I were the L/L I would like to think I could, as that contract is between the agent and the L/L - but like I said am I over thinking it?
Thoughts?
Of course. The landlord is entitled to go and check out their property after a tenancy.
There are some inventory companies that do shocking jobs. It's not uncommon for an EA to instruct an inventory company to do the check out and then the landlord goes and has a look and comes back with a load of stuff that was not picked up on the check out.
Whether those things are existing issues/false or not can only be determined by if there was a proper inventory done at the time of check in/paper trail for work done during the tenancy.
Of course there is a line between picking up the slack of a crappy check out and trying to do the tenant over with false accusations of damage or whatever.
There are some inventory companies that do shocking jobs. It's not uncommon for an EA to instruct an inventory company to do the check out and then the landlord goes and has a look and comes back with a load of stuff that was not picked up on the check out.
Whether those things are existing issues/false or not can only be determined by if there was a proper inventory done at the time of check in/paper trail for work done during the tenancy.
Of course there is a line between picking up the slack of a crappy check out and trying to do the tenant over with false accusations of damage or whatever.
Edited by Thermobaric on Monday 7th August 22:04
If the agent has done the check out with the tenant, thats it. Tenancy has ended according to the contract.
There is no scope for a further inspection with the departed tenant not there.
Same thing happened with me, we checked out and the owner found things wrong afterwards. Had to threaten small claims court to get deposit back. That was before the days of deposits being held etc...
There is no scope for a further inspection with the departed tenant not there.
Same thing happened with me, we checked out and the owner found things wrong afterwards. Had to threaten small claims court to get deposit back. That was before the days of deposits being held etc...
economicpygmy said:
Is the deposit being held in a scheme?
Did your employee take photos when moving in/out, did the agent?
Unfortunately, many landlords think tenants should pay for wear and tear; they do not have to, it's a cost of business.
Yep, TDS. And yes to photos. Did your employee take photos when moving in/out, did the agent?
Unfortunately, many landlords think tenants should pay for wear and tear; they do not have to, it's a cost of business.
I agree about wear and tear.
SydneyBridge said:
If the agent has done the check out with the tenant, thats it. Tenancy has ended according to the contract.
There is no scope for a further inspection with the departed tenant not there.
Same thing happened with me, we checked out and the owner found things wrong afterwards. Had to threaten small claims court to get deposit back. That was before the days of deposits being held etc...
Interesting, thank you and sort of sums up my initial reaction/response. There is no scope for a further inspection with the departed tenant not there.
Same thing happened with me, we checked out and the owner found things wrong afterwards. Had to threaten small claims court to get deposit back. That was before the days of deposits being held etc...
SydneyBridge said:
If the agent has done the check out with the tenant, thats it. Tenancy has ended according to the contract.
There is no scope for a further inspection with the departed tenant not there.
Same thing happened with me, we checked out and the owner found things wrong afterwards. Had to threaten small claims court to get deposit back. That was before the days of deposits being held etc...
This, and the youngster sounds a decent sort too. Sounds more a case of a chancer L/L.There is no scope for a further inspection with the departed tenant not there.
Same thing happened with me, we checked out and the owner found things wrong afterwards. Had to threaten small claims court to get deposit back. That was before the days of deposits being held etc...
Indeed but, as has already been pointed out, if the tenancy has been legally terminated prior to the landlord's inspection, he/she cannot have another bite at the cherry. In such a case only the agent's evidence should be taken into account by the DPS. The tenant needs to make sure that the double play is flagged up to the administrator.
Red Devil said:
Indeed but, as has already been pointed out, if the tenancy has been legally terminated prior to the landlord's inspection, he/she cannot have another bite at the cherry. In such a case only the agent's evidence should be taken into account by the DPS. The tenant needs to make sure that the double play is flagged up to the administrator.
Legally terminated?? the tenancy has ended. its the deposit and how that is refunded or deducted that's in question. its all part of the AST even if it has ended.What you have said is not correct.
An agent can inspect and then the landlord can inspect. Great Aunt fanny can inspect each on separate days. If it goes to arbitration then provided the evidence backs up the deductions it does not matter if the owner highlighted it or the agent or my great aunt.
Clearly a time line as to when inspections happen is relevant but if all close in time then submit the evidence.
selym said:
If the pre-move in inspection is done by the agent and agreed by the LL, and the move out inspection is carried out by the agent then surely any discrepancies are to be thrashed out between the agentband the LL; the tenant is cleared and should be in receipt of their deposit?
Yes, there is no provision in the tenancy contract for a further check out to be done by the LL once the agent has done one. The contact ends when the agent does the checkout. Its up to the agent to do this properly and the LL cannot come in afterwards and decide other things are not rightselym said:
If the pre-move in inspection is done by the agent and agreed by the LL, and the move out inspection is carried out by the agent then surely any discrepancies are to be thrashed out between the agentband the LL; the tenant is cleared and should be in receipt of their deposit?
no - the landlord and tenant may both find different items they believe should or should not be deducted. ie we can inspect and say that x carpet is fine with wear and tear, LL goes in and says its damaged. or the landlord can spot a broken x hidden away which the agent hadn't seen. The agent is the "agent" of the landlord, see agency law . They will decide between themselves what to try and charge to a tenants deposit. Some landlords wont take advice some will. end of the day its what can be proved or evidenced at the dispute service.
SydneyBridge said:
Yes, there is no provision in the tenancy contract for a further check out to be done by the LL once the agent has done one. The contact ends when the agent does the checkout. Its up to the agent to do this properly and the LL cannot come in afterwards and decide other things are not right
sorry but that's rubbish. see my other replies in this thread for why.selym said:
If the pre-move in inspection is done by the agent and agreed by the LL, and the move out inspection is carried out by the agent then surely any discrepancies are to be thrashed out between the agentband the LL; the tenant is cleared and should be in receipt of their deposit?
If the LL is allowed to verify the inventory and approve it, why wouldn't they be able to check the check out report too? That makes no sense. Where are you getting your info from?Assuming the check in and check out was done properly (independent company providing a comprehensive report), the TDS will use those reports as evidence during any debate between the tenant and landlord. Any other photos or information taken outside of that report is largely irrelevant. It will be the TDS who decide who gets the deposit back if an agreement can't be reached between tenant and landlord - in this case the LL sounds like a chancer and i'd go straight to TDS.
First thing your friend should do is ask for the documentation/proof that the deposit was held with the TDS. If it is held with the TDS make sure a dispute is raised immediately, if it is not registered with the TDS take some more advice here, but it puts things hugely in tenants favour.
Check here to see if deposit registered -
Tenancy Deposit Scheme
deposits@tenancydepositscheme.com
Telephone: 0300 037 1000
Once the dispute is raised, the evidence will be submitted to the TDS - check in and check out report. It is this report, if done properly, that the TDS will give most weight to when making their decision on the deposit.
If the check in/out hasn't been done properly and isn't comprehensive it should work in the tenants favour.
Do not wait around on this, there are deadlines in place in which the resolution can be dealt with by the tenant friendly TDS and if what you have explained is accurate, your friend should get their deposit back.
TL;DR - Check deposit held with TDS, If it is raise dispute asap (if not come back for further advice), submit check in/out as evidence, if property was left as friend says TDS will return deposit.
And answering the actual question -
First thing your friend should do is ask for the documentation/proof that the deposit was held with the TDS. If it is held with the TDS make sure a dispute is raised immediately, if it is not registered with the TDS take some more advice here, but it puts things hugely in tenants favour.
Check here to see if deposit registered -
Tenancy Deposit Scheme
deposits@tenancydepositscheme.com
Telephone: 0300 037 1000
Once the dispute is raised, the evidence will be submitted to the TDS - check in and check out report. It is this report, if done properly, that the TDS will give most weight to when making their decision on the deposit.
If the check in/out hasn't been done properly and isn't comprehensive it should work in the tenants favour.
Do not wait around on this, there are deadlines in place in which the resolution can be dealt with by the tenant friendly TDS and if what you have explained is accurate, your friend should get their deposit back.
TL;DR - Check deposit held with TDS, If it is raise dispute asap (if not come back for further advice), submit check in/out as evidence, if property was left as friend says TDS will return deposit.
And answering the actual question -
mattyn1 said:
can the L/L do his own inspection having already instructed the agent to do one? My initial response was no, but if I were the L/L I would like to think I could, as that contract is between the agent and the L/L - but like I said am I over thinking it?
The answer is, yes of course they can inspect all they like, but in the case of a dispute the TDS will give very little weight to a landlords personal inspection of their property after an independent check out once the tenancy has ended. In fact, they will always give very little weight to any personal inspection by the owner of the property.Edited by FrankAbagnale on Tuesday 8th August 12:08
Thermobaric said:
selym said:
If the pre-move in inspection is done by the agent and agreed by the LL, and the move out inspection is carried out by the agent then surely any discrepancies are to be thrashed out between the agentband the LL; the tenant is cleared and should be in receipt of their deposit?
If the LL is allowed to verify the inventory and approve it, why wouldn't they be able to check the check out report too? That makes no sense. Where are you getting your info from?FrankAbagnale said:
The answer is, yes of course they can inspect all they like, but in the case of a dispute the TDS will give very little weight to a landlords personal inspection of their property after an independent check out once the tenancy has ended. In fact, they will always give very little weight to any personal inspection by the owner of the property.
They should and do give equal weight to all claims irrespective if it was done by a private landlord or a inventory clerk. Its the strength of the evidence provided to them that will decide the claim. The TDS don't pre-weight a decision and would be unfair of them to do so. They go to great lengths to stress it evidenced based.Edited by FrankAbagnale on Tuesday 8th August 12:08
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