V12 Manual or V12S SportShift?
Discussion
I appreciate this has been asked many times but I am looking at either a V12 Manual (earlier model) or V12S SS. What are the main differences between the S and non-S?
I will highlight my understanding and it's always good to get others opinions collated I feel.
I'm currently coming from an R35 GTR so I want something with more luxury (which both will have) and ideally want it to hold its value. I'll probably only be looking at coupes due to budget.
V12 Manual Pros:
- Manual stick = more engaging
- More potential for future value
V12 Manual "cons":
- Older tech to where it doesn't have auto windwipers or headlights?!
- Suspension not as good
- Styling not as aggressive in my opinion and generally less fitted with carbon option
V12S SS Pros:
- Newer tech and more features as standard
- More aggressive exterior and better suspension
- More available
V12S SS "cons":
- Less future value potential
- Gearbox less regarded among some people. I will be town driving FYI
Please feel free to correct the above and give plenty of opinions. Both are in the same price range at the moment.
I will highlight my understanding and it's always good to get others opinions collated I feel.
I'm currently coming from an R35 GTR so I want something with more luxury (which both will have) and ideally want it to hold its value. I'll probably only be looking at coupes due to budget.
V12 Manual Pros:
- Manual stick = more engaging
- More potential for future value
V12 Manual "cons":
- Older tech to where it doesn't have auto windwipers or headlights?!
- Suspension not as good
- Styling not as aggressive in my opinion and generally less fitted with carbon option
V12S SS Pros:
- Newer tech and more features as standard
- More aggressive exterior and better suspension
- More available
V12S SS "cons":
- Less future value potential
- Gearbox less regarded among some people. I will be town driving FYI
Please feel free to correct the above and give plenty of opinions. Both are in the same price range at the moment.
Not this again!
Agree some of the pros and cons aren't that simple...especially for town driving? Do you really a V12V for that type of driving?
I've a V12VS with SS III and will admit the transmission is the single element of the car that needs most practice and adjustment but get it right and it's awesome and in some ways just as involving as a traditional manual (just my opinion).
Last weekend I was on a run with a Ferrari 360 challenge stradale and mclaren 570s and the V12VS came alive and the gear changes in sport mode were awesome!
Agree though - test drive a few and see what you think and make your own mind up
Agree some of the pros and cons aren't that simple...especially for town driving? Do you really a V12V for that type of driving?
I've a V12VS with SS III and will admit the transmission is the single element of the car that needs most practice and adjustment but get it right and it's awesome and in some ways just as involving as a traditional manual (just my opinion).
Last weekend I was on a run with a Ferrari 360 challenge stradale and mclaren 570s and the V12VS came alive and the gear changes in sport mode were awesome!
Agree though - test drive a few and see what you think and make your own mind up
jaipaul said:
I will be town driving FYI
Do you mean exclusively? Most of the time? Half and half?If exclusively or mostly, I would suggest an automatic transmission (if you can stretch to a DBS, for example). Manuals (with or without a clutch pedal) suck in stop and go traffic, plain and simple.
quench said:
Do you mean exclusively? Most of the time? Half and half?
If exclusively or mostly, I would suggest an automatic transmission (if you can stretch to a DBS, for example). Manuals (with or without a clutch pedal) suck in stop and go traffic, plain and simple.
Sorry should've specified... 50/50... it will be a weekend car but I will use it around town driving and the odd country blast If exclusively or mostly, I would suggest an automatic transmission (if you can stretch to a DBS, for example). Manuals (with or without a clutch pedal) suck in stop and go traffic, plain and simple.
I think the OP has summed up the pros and cons pretty well. You need to try both; SS is marmite, as you will see from many threads on this site!
Personally I'm not a fan of the SS, but people do love it, and it is the big issue in deciding between the cars. I've gone from a manual V12 to a manual V12S and the newer car is a whole lot better in terms of suspension, general 'feel', tech, etc. That said, the price difference is pretty big, and a manual V12 is still a fabulous car. As has been said many times, you will want to buy one once you've tried it, but it's a completely personal thing as to whether manual or SS is the way to go.
Personally I'm not a fan of the SS, but people do love it, and it is the big issue in deciding between the cars. I've gone from a manual V12 to a manual V12S and the newer car is a whole lot better in terms of suspension, general 'feel', tech, etc. That said, the price difference is pretty big, and a manual V12 is still a fabulous car. As has been said many times, you will want to buy one once you've tried it, but it's a completely personal thing as to whether manual or SS is the way to go.
I have done quite a lot of miles in both versions, albeit in Roadster form. They are both fantastic in different ways. I think the V12VR suspension is a bit better resolved than in early coupes.
The adaptive suspension works well and I usually use the normal setting unless the roads are smooth when it will go into sport. Most driving on the Continent is in Sport and you really feel the difference when pushing on.
Don't worry too much about SS3 it works very well even in town traffic - just use the paddles not "D". I have had no concerns other than one occasion when trying to manoeuvre the car on a steep hill in a very confined space! That was a bit smelly but in normal driving it has been fine. Just do not think it is an automatic, it isn't!
As others have said get a test drive of both and make your own mind up. My only regret with the V12VR was that I didn't spec it with lightweights. They really suit the cars so it would be a big thing for me for the car to have them on it. Most cars specced by dealers don't seem to have them so they are not that easy to find. The Lightweights on S cars are better than early V12V IMO. Hope that helps.
The adaptive suspension works well and I usually use the normal setting unless the roads are smooth when it will go into sport. Most driving on the Continent is in Sport and you really feel the difference when pushing on.
Don't worry too much about SS3 it works very well even in town traffic - just use the paddles not "D". I have had no concerns other than one occasion when trying to manoeuvre the car on a steep hill in a very confined space! That was a bit smelly but in normal driving it has been fine. Just do not think it is an automatic, it isn't!
As others have said get a test drive of both and make your own mind up. My only regret with the V12VR was that I didn't spec it with lightweights. They really suit the cars so it would be a big thing for me for the car to have them on it. Most cars specced by dealers don't seem to have them so they are not that easy to find. The Lightweights on S cars are better than early V12V IMO. Hope that helps.
Ian has summed up perfectly.
I use my S as a daily and is much nicer in traffic than my manual V8 ever was.
It is considered by some ( mostly my wife ) to be totally OTT for a car to commute in but so what.
Not sure any version is necessarily an investment ( arguably the manual /s ) may be the least worst option here ) but if that's a concern then neither is for you.
Be warned - once you drive ANY version of the 12 you will buy it.
I use my S as a daily and is much nicer in traffic than my manual V8 ever was.
It is considered by some ( mostly my wife ) to be totally OTT for a car to commute in but so what.
Not sure any version is necessarily an investment ( arguably the manual /s ) may be the least worst option here ) but if that's a concern then neither is for you.
Be warned - once you drive ANY version of the 12 you will buy it.
I went from a v12 roadster manual to a V12 S roadster manual. Didn't like, the Sportshift but that's probably because I came from a 458.
The S is a better car all round. The adaptive damping makes the handling MUCH sharper. I'm sure you know, but it's not just the ability to adjust hard/soft; it actually works while you are driving to vary the suspension depending on how you are driving. So even in soft setting it is giving a sharper drive.
Add to that quicker steering and more power and , to me, the decision was easy.
One point - don't be too sure it will be more luxurious that your last car. It's a pretty hard riding, full-on car. It will do the tour down to South of France and you'll get there ok but it's not soft and luxurious for sure
The S is a better car all round. The adaptive damping makes the handling MUCH sharper. I'm sure you know, but it's not just the ability to adjust hard/soft; it actually works while you are driving to vary the suspension depending on how you are driving. So even in soft setting it is giving a sharper drive.
Add to that quicker steering and more power and , to me, the decision was easy.
One point - don't be too sure it will be more luxurious that your last car. It's a pretty hard riding, full-on car. It will do the tour down to South of France and you'll get there ok but it's not soft and luxurious for sure
jaipaul said:
Thanks for the last two posts. Very informative.
Yes the Sevenoaks dealer is waiting for some to become available for me to test drive... they have been very helpful! Harder now that they don't sell them from new so waiting game for me
I think your problem with this approach is that you need to assess what the chances are that they will get both versions in together, especially as they seem one of the few dealers who do not have a version of either for sale. I would be looking on the pre-owned site to see which dealers have versions of both now that I could try - and make a visit. The cynic in me says that Sevenoaks will push you to like the first one that they get. Maybe unfair but.......Yes the Sevenoaks dealer is waiting for some to become available for me to test drive... they have been very helpful! Harder now that they don't sell them from new so waiting game for me
Ex Boy Racer said:
The adaptive damping makes the handling MUCH sharper. I'm sure you know, but it's not just the ability to adjust hard/soft; it actually works while you are driving to vary the suspension depending on how you are driving. So even in soft setting it is giving a sharper drive.
I didn't know this either , thank you . Can you elaborate please or direct me to a technical article etc ? My inner nerd is piqued wtdoom said:
Ex Boy Racer said:
The adaptive damping makes the handling MUCH sharper. I'm sure you know, but it's not just the ability to adjust hard/soft; it actually works while you are driving to vary the suspension depending on how you are driving. So even in soft setting it is giving a sharper drive.
I didn't know this either , thank you . Can you elaborate please or direct me to a technical article etc ? My inner nerd is piqued But basically, as the suspension works, it stiffness varies depending on load, speed and other inputs.
So, the soft setting, while softer than the original V12 and more comfortable, changes as you drive it and the electronics stiffen it to make it sharper than the original. All done in microseconds of course. Very clever.
If you drive the original and the S back to back the difference is very noticeable. Handling is so much better in the S.
It can be retro-fitted (BR can do it for about £17k I believe).
Sorry to get into this back and forth again but I feel compelled to respond to categorical statements ("better") like the one above. Just my opinion, but in my back-to-back-to-back ride on my regular track drive (Oulton), while it was clear the suspension aided comfort, for me the original was more predictable, held shape more consistently on turn-in allowing me to trail brake further in. Of course the Corsa's on the V12V vs the std P-zero's on the V12VS contributed. Bottom line - certainly would go for the new suspension on the road, but helps less than a better set of tyres on the track.
12pack said:
Sorry to get into this back and forth again but I feel compelled to respond to categorical statements ("better") like the one above. Just my opinion, but in my back-to-back-to-back ride on my regular track drive (Oulton), while it was clear the suspension aided comfort, for me the original was more predictable, held shape more consistently on turn-in allowing me to trail brake further in. Of course the Corsa's on the V12V vs the std P-zero's on the V12VS contributed. Bottom line - certainly would go for the new suspension on the road, but helps less than a better set of tyres on the track.
You may well be right.Though I drove my old V12 at Castle Combe and, to be honest, that wasn't exactly Caterham-like either!
12pack said:
Sorry to get into this back and forth again but I feel compelled to respond to categorical statements ("better") like the one above. Just my opinion, but in my back-to-back-to-back ride on my regular track drive (Oulton), while it was clear the suspension aided comfort, for me the original was more predictable, held shape more consistently on turn-in allowing me to trail brake further in. Of course the Corsa's on the V12V vs the std P-zero's on the V12VS contributed. Bottom line - certainly would go for the new suspension on the road, but helps less than a better set of tyres on the track.
Interesting. I'd bet that the tires were the main contributor in your case. My V12VS is definitely more predictable, less 'spiky' in its handling on both road and track, compared to my old V12V, both on Corsas. Putting Cup 2's on the S made it even better.Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff