Uninsured "Learner" Driver On Private Land (With Permission)
Discussion
One thing that's come up a few times here is the issue of someone driving on private land - such as the traditional letting your offspring practice parking in between driving lessons - and being got for offences such as not having valid insurance.
The mechanism for this being that, although it isn't a public road, the public being able to access it means it can still be subject to the relevant laws, yes?
So would you be ok if there is a gate (and you have the landowner's permission to be there)?
I'm asking because we've just bought a new factory that's currently empty, and so the car park is too, thus it coming to mind as an ideal place for my friend to give his wife a very basic introduction to how you operate a car before she starts lessons. Just a very low level correlation of what each control makes the car do, that kind of thing.
If they had permission from, say, our MD, would it be ok to do that?
Does the gate need to be kept closed, or is the fact there is a gate enough to show it is not public land? Does the nature of the site (industrial/factory rather than shopping centre) make any difference to whether "the public can technically get into it, so it's public" is valid logic?
Might not come to anything, just interested in what you'd have to arrange in order for it not to be a problem.
The mechanism for this being that, although it isn't a public road, the public being able to access it means it can still be subject to the relevant laws, yes?
So would you be ok if there is a gate (and you have the landowner's permission to be there)?
I'm asking because we've just bought a new factory that's currently empty, and so the car park is too, thus it coming to mind as an ideal place for my friend to give his wife a very basic introduction to how you operate a car before she starts lessons. Just a very low level correlation of what each control makes the car do, that kind of thing.
If they had permission from, say, our MD, would it be ok to do that?
Does the gate need to be kept closed, or is the fact there is a gate enough to show it is not public land? Does the nature of the site (industrial/factory rather than shopping centre) make any difference to whether "the public can technically get into it, so it's public" is valid logic?
Might not come to anything, just interested in what you'd have to arrange in order for it not to be a problem.
It seems a bit of a grey area - but common sense would suggest that private land behind a gate preventing access should be enough, like a field. I guess the car park is an area to which 'the public' would normally have access.... but if the gate is shut?
http://www.driving-laws.co.uk/can-i-drive-my-unins...
http://www.driving-laws.co.uk/can-i-drive-my-unins...
I'd say you'd have to have a very bad attitude or an extremely pedantic cop for them to interpret the law so strictly.
If you were letting a bunch of underage kids drive like idiots , causing a nusiance to the public, then the police would probabaly take an interest.
A bloke giving his wife some driving lessons.... I'd doubt the police would take a second look.
That said, your insurance company obviously won't cover any damage caused.
If you were letting a bunch of underage kids drive like idiots , causing a nusiance to the public, then the police would probabaly take an interest.
A bloke giving his wife some driving lessons.... I'd doubt the police would take a second look.
That said, your insurance company obviously won't cover any damage caused.
Section 143 of the RTA says:
a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road [F1 or other public place] unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act
Road or other public place is a point of opinion of the court. It's not a yes/no answer. Your defence to any charge would be it isn't a road or public place.
See here: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_of...
I'd suggest it's your decision to take the risk if you wish, you know there is a possibility you could get unhappy PC Plod but what is the likelihood?
a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road [F1 or other public place] unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act
Road or other public place is a point of opinion of the court. It's not a yes/no answer. Your defence to any charge would be it isn't a road or public place.
See here: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_of...
I'd suggest it's your decision to take the risk if you wish, you know there is a possibility you could get unhappy PC Plod but what is the likelihood?
Things were so much easier last century, when shops were shut on a sunday..
My brother and I would regularly drive an old mini countryman round my dads yard, when I was 11. (We wanted a go-kart, but my mum said no).
One of my friends used to drive all the paved tracks on his family's farmland.
But then, we didn't have to worry about people trespassing and the whole litigation concept was still 'american'.
My brother and I would regularly drive an old mini countryman round my dads yard, when I was 11. (We wanted a go-kart, but my mum said no).
One of my friends used to drive all the paved tracks on his family's farmland.
But then, we didn't have to worry about people trespassing and the whole litigation concept was still 'american'.
Hol said:
Things were so much easier last century, when shops were shut on a sunday..
My brother and I would regularly drive an old mini countryman round my dads yard, when I was 11. (We wanted a go-kart, but my mum said no).
One of my friends used to drive all the paved tracks on his family's farmland.
But then, we didn't have to worry about people trespassing and the whole litigation concept was still 'american'.
I used to drive on farms, farm tracks and caravan sites. I'd still allow the former pair now, but not caravan sites due to aforementioned litigation risks.My brother and I would regularly drive an old mini countryman round my dads yard, when I was 11. (We wanted a go-kart, but my mum said no).
One of my friends used to drive all the paved tracks on his family's farmland.
But then, we didn't have to worry about people trespassing and the whole litigation concept was still 'american'.
My dad always used to let me sit on his knee at the top of our road and "drive" the car down to the bottom to our house. This would have been about 1971. Could you imagine the absolute furore nowadays if some parent was to allow that? It'd quite probably make the BBC news, BRAKE would go f
king apest.I've got to say that apart from being able to pay for beer with plastic cards and cash machines (just imagine not having enough cash in your pocket for a beer on a Sunday afternoon
) that this century is st.Dog Star said:
My dad always used to let me sit on his knee at the top of our road and "drive" the car down to the bottom to our house. This would have been about 1971.
Same here.... 
I'm also remembering the time I let a disabled boy steer my car from my knee quite fast on a public road. He didn't have legs, so I had to do the peddle bit.
I'll say a few Hail Mary's for that.
bradjsmith88 said:
I'd suggest it's your decision to take the risk if you wish, you know there is a possibility you could get unhappy PC Plod but what is the likelihood?
For many people, it's sod's law that the PC Unhappy, who is a traffic officer, will be passing at that time. PC Unhappy is an expert at spotting situations where somebody is likely to be "technically" committing an offence and then investigating it. Similar situations PC Unhappy looks out for is the person winching an uninsured car off a trailer where it briefly touches the road before rolling onto private land.is the car park part of the factory purchase ?
i.e. has the ow new of the factory purchased the car park too ?
if so, then surely it's private land - ?
If there is a lockable gate preventing any other access then even better.
Doing donuts might not be the best way of keeping of the plod radar tho
i.e. has the ow new of the factory purchased the car park too ?
if so, then surely it's private land - ?
If there is a lockable gate preventing any other access then even better.
Doing donuts might not be the best way of keeping of the plod radar tho
Thanks for everyone's input. Yes, I agree on the insurance not being valid, I was just interested in how "private" private land had to be to avoid the hassle that people have reported from doing this sort of thing in supermarket carparks and the like after closing.
It appears that the general concensus would be that with the gate closed, so the land cannot be accessed (yes, it is "our" land, at least the car park would be), you're probably about as good as you can be for being able to make that argument, but there may still be a minor risk.
As for the why, she has almost zero driving experience, and it seems like a bit of a waste to be paying an instructor to teach someone the very basics like which pedal is which, and a rough feel for how much force etc is needed - obviously not true when swapping across to an instructor's car, but better than nothing. As other people have said, I learned to "drive" as soon as I could touch the pedals, driving round a field at my grandmother's place, and I do think getting that initial learning of how to make a car at least go, stop, and turn is worth doing before having formal lessons. Were she still around, we'd be making a trip down there to do similar, free from police interference (they'd have had to get past a disgruntled nonagenarian in full "git orf moi laaaaand" mode first
).
Annoyingly, while they have that kind of introductory course locally, it's only for school-age kids, I don't think they have an adults version.
But anyway, as I said, thanks for people's input, it was just the first time I'd seen a version of this scenario that made me think "well, surely that must be ok?", so I thought I'd ask. It is a bit frustrating that it feels like it should just be a common sense thing (a married couple in their thirties in a diesel estate is hardly the usual source of "people messing about in car parks" police calls), but still, that's how life is.
It appears that the general concensus would be that with the gate closed, so the land cannot be accessed (yes, it is "our" land, at least the car park would be), you're probably about as good as you can be for being able to make that argument, but there may still be a minor risk.
As for the why, she has almost zero driving experience, and it seems like a bit of a waste to be paying an instructor to teach someone the very basics like which pedal is which, and a rough feel for how much force etc is needed - obviously not true when swapping across to an instructor's car, but better than nothing. As other people have said, I learned to "drive" as soon as I could touch the pedals, driving round a field at my grandmother's place, and I do think getting that initial learning of how to make a car at least go, stop, and turn is worth doing before having formal lessons. Were she still around, we'd be making a trip down there to do similar, free from police interference (they'd have had to get past a disgruntled nonagenarian in full "git orf moi laaaaand" mode first
). Annoyingly, while they have that kind of introductory course locally, it's only for school-age kids, I don't think they have an adults version.
But anyway, as I said, thanks for people's input, it was just the first time I'd seen a version of this scenario that made me think "well, surely that must be ok?", so I thought I'd ask. It is a bit frustrating that it feels like it should just be a common sense thing (a married couple in their thirties in a diesel estate is hardly the usual source of "people messing about in car parks" police calls), but still, that's how life is.
red997 said:
is the car park part of the factory purchase ?
Doing donuts might not be the best way of keeping of the plod radar tho
Factory is currently empty, I'm tempted to ask if before we have the floor redone I can do some donuts inside it. It'd be properly good for RC cars, too. Not that the Cappo is much bigger.Doing donuts might not be the best way of keeping of the plod radar tho
Dog Star said:
I used to drive on farms, farm tracks and caravan sites. I'd still allow the former pair now, but not caravan sites due to aforementioned litigation risks.
My dad always used to let me sit on his knee at the top of our road and "drive" the car down to the bottom to our house. This would have been about 1971. Could you imagine the absolute furore nowadays if some parent was to allow that? It'd quite probably make the BBC news, BRAKE would go fking apest.
I've got to say that apart from being able to pay for beer with plastic cards and cash machines (just imagine not having enough cash in your pocket for a beer on a Sunday afternoon) that this century is st.
sMy dad always used to let me sit on his knee at the top of our road and "drive" the car down to the bottom to our house. This would have been about 1971. Could you imagine the absolute furore nowadays if some parent was to allow that? It'd quite probably make the BBC news, BRAKE would go f
king apest.I've got to say that apart from being able to pay for beer with plastic cards and cash machines (just imagine not having enough cash in your pocket for a beer on a Sunday afternoon
) that this century is st.t, I did the same thing with my dad in the early/mid 00s, gave my 15 year old brother a shot of my 4x4 all of 3 or 4 years ago. The key is not getting caught! Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff