Wireless networked audio - thoroughly confused!
Discussion
Apologies for yet another thread on this, but I've got to the point where I don't trust 'experts' (see comments below on RicherSounds experience), and I've not got the time to build up the detailed knowledge I need...
Anyway, I'm planning to finally build up a multi-room audio system, but I'm flummoxed as to what to opt for, as every man and his dog has a different opinion.
So I went to my local Richer Sounds to get some more 'professional' advice on Sonos-vs-HEOS-vs-BOSE-vs-Chromecast-vs-everything else (NAIM, B&O...)
...and got pointed straight at Yamaha MusicTouch. No further discussion from the chap or the store manager, just full on enthusiasm for Yamaha, because apparently you can link other brands' speakers to it which gives you more choice and flexibility (AND quality), plus it does hi-def/24-bit (which Sonos doesn't), plus you can use one of their 5.1 / 7.2 AV receivers as the 'hub'. Except I get home, do some googling...and apparently MusicTouch doesn't support WiFi interface and control of 3rd party speakers, only Bluetooth broadcasting (which defeats the 24-bit part of the equation!). And you then have to control the 3P speaker's volume separately either manually or through its own app. Which sounds like a cop-out...
So I'm going around in circles.
- I'd like 24-bit as what's the point in a (moderately) expensive music system if you can't listen to the music in-detail.
- I think WiFi (rather than just Bluetooth) is then also pretty fundamental. Probably for a lot more reasons than that too...I've read Bluetooth can induce 'lag' and can cause drop-outs more easily...
- I'd also like a simple-to-use app, rather than one that causes headaches (either through slow-running, a sh'te interface or through uncertainty over what the next update will bring in terms of reliability). Especially as my wife will use as much as me...
- ...and I think it'd be good to tie-it into upgrading the 5.1 system also, as otherwise I feel like I'm doubling-up.
...BUT I don't want to spend B&O / Naim levels of money as I don't have that budget. Yet apparently there's nothing out there that ticks the above 4 (fairly straightforward) boxes.
Any help/advice gratefully received,
Martin.
PS - just discovered Roon while browsing on here...any comments?
Anyway, I'm planning to finally build up a multi-room audio system, but I'm flummoxed as to what to opt for, as every man and his dog has a different opinion.
So I went to my local Richer Sounds to get some more 'professional' advice on Sonos-vs-HEOS-vs-BOSE-vs-Chromecast-vs-everything else (NAIM, B&O...)
...and got pointed straight at Yamaha MusicTouch. No further discussion from the chap or the store manager, just full on enthusiasm for Yamaha, because apparently you can link other brands' speakers to it which gives you more choice and flexibility (AND quality), plus it does hi-def/24-bit (which Sonos doesn't), plus you can use one of their 5.1 / 7.2 AV receivers as the 'hub'. Except I get home, do some googling...and apparently MusicTouch doesn't support WiFi interface and control of 3rd party speakers, only Bluetooth broadcasting (which defeats the 24-bit part of the equation!). And you then have to control the 3P speaker's volume separately either manually or through its own app. Which sounds like a cop-out...
So I'm going around in circles.
- I'd like 24-bit as what's the point in a (moderately) expensive music system if you can't listen to the music in-detail.
- I think WiFi (rather than just Bluetooth) is then also pretty fundamental. Probably for a lot more reasons than that too...I've read Bluetooth can induce 'lag' and can cause drop-outs more easily...
- I'd also like a simple-to-use app, rather than one that causes headaches (either through slow-running, a sh'te interface or through uncertainty over what the next update will bring in terms of reliability). Especially as my wife will use as much as me...
- ...and I think it'd be good to tie-it into upgrading the 5.1 system also, as otherwise I feel like I'm doubling-up.
...BUT I don't want to spend B&O / Naim levels of money as I don't have that budget. Yet apparently there's nothing out there that ticks the above 4 (fairly straightforward) boxes.
Any help/advice gratefully received,
Martin.
PS - just discovered Roon while browsing on here...any comments?
Edited by havoc on Wednesday 30th August 13:56
What is your music source? Local physical media or a streaming service? They need different solutions.
24 bit audio is going to be the difficult bit to do on a budget from a streaming service. Only Tidal has 24bit audio from what I have seen, and not everything supports Tidal, nor is Tidal cheap.
The cheapest budget multi room system I've seen that supports 24bit audio is the Chromecast Audio (NOT the normal Chromecast):
https://www.google.com/chromecast/audio/tech-specs...
This will also allow you to use multi room audio. All controlled from your phone using the very easy to use Chromecast button. Main downside is that you need to plug it into an amp/speaker combo. However I consider that an upside if you want proper HiFi, even the best Sonos are not as good as a reasonable amp and speakers. If you want to do it on the cheap you could plug into any old powered speaker/radio with an input, however this defeats the point of 24bit audio IMO.
24 bit audio is going to be the difficult bit to do on a budget from a streaming service. Only Tidal has 24bit audio from what I have seen, and not everything supports Tidal, nor is Tidal cheap.
The cheapest budget multi room system I've seen that supports 24bit audio is the Chromecast Audio (NOT the normal Chromecast):
https://www.google.com/chromecast/audio/tech-specs...
This will also allow you to use multi room audio. All controlled from your phone using the very easy to use Chromecast button. Main downside is that you need to plug it into an amp/speaker combo. However I consider that an upside if you want proper HiFi, even the best Sonos are not as good as a reasonable amp and speakers. If you want to do it on the cheap you could plug into any old powered speaker/radio with an input, however this defeats the point of 24bit audio IMO.
Combination of own music library (currently on PC - think I probably need to get a NAS) and streaming service (currently Amazon as we've got Prime), plus the wife's iPhone / iPod collection (which is 90% replicated on the PC).
Having done some more reading around Chromecast (which I previously thought was just a 'budget' solution), you may be right...but does mean the above mix could become a right PITA vis-a-vis 'driving' the different sources.
Small additional downside in apparently needing to use different apps to control the different sources, but I'm wondering if Roon or Airfoil might be a (partial) fix for that...
It would on the plus-side mean (I think) I can keep using the Monitor iDeck 100 we've currently got in the dining room - rather nice little unit, be a shame to partly-supercede it with something 'inferior' like a Play:3.
Having done some more reading around Chromecast (which I previously thought was just a 'budget' solution), you may be right...but does mean the above mix could become a right PITA vis-a-vis 'driving' the different sources.
Small additional downside in apparently needing to use different apps to control the different sources, but I'm wondering if Roon or Airfoil might be a (partial) fix for that...
It would on the plus-side mean (I think) I can keep using the Monitor iDeck 100 we've currently got in the dining room - rather nice little unit, be a shame to partly-supercede it with something 'inferior' like a Play:3.
If you are on Amazon already and prepared to give up on 24bit music (which is pointless on cheaper systems IMO, you've already ruled out spending on decent kit like Naim), then Amazon echos would allow you to output to a proper amp or you can buy the ones with built in speakers. Amazon have even just this week added multi room to echo so it would tick that box. You can't get simpler to use than being actually able to verbalise your choice of album or artist. Obviously echo doesn't work well with local media, you'd need to faff (and additional kit) to do it, but it is possible...
If you want a mix of local and streaming I'd just get the Sonos, anything else and you will need the two apps. It is the best supported one, and the sound quality is reasonable.
If you want a mix of local and streaming I'd just get the Sonos, anything else and you will need the two apps. It is the best supported one, and the sound quality is reasonable.
Mark - ripped files are a mix of MP3 (@192 or 256kbps) and iTunes.
I've also got a pretty large CD library, which I'd happily re-rip if it means I can get better quality.
Tank - I'm not wedded to Amazon - we just have Prime at the moment as it suits us. And I would rather not commit myself by investing in Echo...and by the same principle I'm not keen to commit myself to any other proprietary-only kit like Sonos if I can avoid it...Sonos is however the consumer-grade yardstick with the best interface (when it works from recent reviews) .
Plus probably 80% of our listening at the moment is owned not streamed. So that makes Echo at least as big a faff and more restrictive (despite the voice control, although it sounds like Google Home will 'echo' that...
).
...which (ignoring the possibles of Musiccast/Soundtouch) leaves the 16-bit vs 24-bit question, vs the Sonos all-in-one interface vs the Chromecast 'bitsa' interfaces (or possible piggy-back on the top).
I've also got a pretty large CD library, which I'd happily re-rip if it means I can get better quality.
Tank - I'm not wedded to Amazon - we just have Prime at the moment as it suits us. And I would rather not commit myself by investing in Echo...and by the same principle I'm not keen to commit myself to any other proprietary-only kit like Sonos if I can avoid it...Sonos is however the consumer-grade yardstick with the best interface (when it works from recent reviews) .
Plus probably 80% of our listening at the moment is owned not streamed. So that makes Echo at least as big a faff and more restrictive (despite the voice control, although it sounds like Google Home will 'echo' that...
)....which (ignoring the possibles of Musiccast/Soundtouch) leaves the 16-bit vs 24-bit question, vs the Sonos all-in-one interface vs the Chromecast 'bitsa' interfaces (or possible piggy-back on the top).
Ignore the 16 bit vs 24 bit.
I've dallied with 'hi-res' for a while, including DSD from SACD, 20 and 24 bit from DVD-A and streamed 176 and 192 occasionally and, IMHO, the differences are slight at best played back on multi thousand pound systems.
I have plain old CDs that sound better than a lot of the hi-res stuff - it's the mastering that I find gives the overall quality.
Far bigger choice of music too for now at least.
Worry about it if/when it becomes mainstream.
Sort out the source material you already own or listen to regularly.
If sound quality really matters, re-rip your catalogue with FLAC (reducing this later to MP3 if required).
Pay a little and use dbpoweramp - it's excellent and reliable for ripping huge catalogues.
Personally, I'm waiting for Spotify to go lossless before investing another penny in replay systems. If done right it will probably be the end of my listening via NAS, streamer and ripping new material.
I've dallied with 'hi-res' for a while, including DSD from SACD, 20 and 24 bit from DVD-A and streamed 176 and 192 occasionally and, IMHO, the differences are slight at best played back on multi thousand pound systems.
I have plain old CDs that sound better than a lot of the hi-res stuff - it's the mastering that I find gives the overall quality.
Far bigger choice of music too for now at least.
Worry about it if/when it becomes mainstream.
Sort out the source material you already own or listen to regularly.
If sound quality really matters, re-rip your catalogue with FLAC (reducing this later to MP3 if required).
Pay a little and use dbpoweramp - it's excellent and reliable for ripping huge catalogues.
Personally, I'm waiting for Spotify to go lossless before investing another penny in replay systems. If done right it will probably be the end of my listening via NAS, streamer and ripping new material.
I can understand the benefit of Sonos vs Chromecast form a userpoint of view, if you want a standalone player rather than having to use your phone/tablet/PC/Whatever. but if you're not entirely wedded to that I can't see why you would pay the vastly inflated cost of Sonos rather than using the £20 Chromecasts to give you multiroom connected audio, with whatever am/speaker combination is appropriate to the room.
Personally I much prefer just using my phone because it's in my pocket. I use Google Assistant to turn on a socket which turns on a PSU which turns on a bank of 6 amplifiers which then feed the ceiling speakers. Then just open whatever I want to listen to and Cast it to wherever I want to listen. Couldn't be simpler.
My setup is £15 Lepai 12v amplifiers and £20 pairs of ceiling speakers, £20 Chromecasts, so £55 a room. I'm sure spending a lot more money would be better quality and that's not what you're after, but it's surprisingly good considering the cost.
Personally I much prefer just using my phone because it's in my pocket. I use Google Assistant to turn on a socket which turns on a PSU which turns on a bank of 6 amplifiers which then feed the ceiling speakers. Then just open whatever I want to listen to and Cast it to wherever I want to listen. Couldn't be simpler.
My setup is £15 Lepai 12v amplifiers and £20 pairs of ceiling speakers, £20 Chromecasts, so £55 a room. I'm sure spending a lot more money would be better quality and that's not what you're after, but it's surprisingly good considering the cost.
legzr1 said:
Ignore the 16 bit vs 24 bit.
....it's the mastering that I find gives the overall quality.
This - Hi Res, is and always has been a marketing gimmick - there is a reason CD audio quality was specced to be 44.1kHz 16 bit - It's because this is already beyond the range of the human ear. ....it's the mastering that I find gives the overall quality.
Anyone who claims to be able to hear the difference is either hearing the difference in loudness or the difference in the mastering or they want to as the now numerous blind A vs B tests have concluded.
https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.... is a fairly well respected analysis of this.
24-bit in the studio makes sense because this gives you headroom to master a 16-bit output from the different inputs by moving things up and down preserving the 16-bit-ness. Any other reason for needing 24-bit is questionable imho.
Bob
havoc said:
Having done some more reading around Chromecast (which I previously thought was just a 'budget' solution), you may be right...but does mean the above mix could become a right PITA vis-a-vis 'driving' the different sources.
If it helps there's been a few speakers announced this week with Chromecast/Google Assistant built in, and more will be coming soon. As the speakers have mics you could upload all your music to Google and ask for it by voice. If you're listening on speakers like that iDeck you're not going to notice it's not lossless.legzr1 said:
Ignore the 16 bit vs 24 bit.
scovette said:
If you're listening on speakers like that iDeck you're not going to notice it's not lossless.
Interesting, thanks! Most rooms you're probably right. Lounge I want to upgrade to something with proper depth...but I guess if I'm really fussed I can keep a separate input for that room, as that's where the main AV receiver will be.scovette said:
If it helps there's been a few speakers announced this week with Chromecast/Google Assistant built in, and more will be coming soon. As the speakers have mics you could upload all your music to Google and ask for it by voice.
Hmmm...more research required then...(I am starting to wonder if all this technology, rather than actually saving labour, is actually creating far too much complexity / variety, which leads to either confusion and delayed action, or to sub-optimal decision making...not just AV but everywhere...god I sound like a luddite...)
IIRC Roon is a spin off from the Meridian Sooloos system.
I like the Sooloos software and the cataloguing is very good. I think Roon has developed this system further (suggestions, linking etc) and has made it very good indeed but I have no direct experience.
If you are looking at Roon, check they haven't carried over an irritation from Sooloos, namely their own proprietary version of FLAC - I have to rip all my music to FLAC and then import the FLAC file into the Sooloos, so that I am not tied to Meridian forever. I keep a FLAC backup on a NAS, although Sooloos backs itself up.
I have Sooloos distributed across two properties in two countries across a WAN but it is not wireless as such, although with Meridian digital speakers and controllable by iPhone and iPad, it is near as dammit. It is made by Meridian and priced accordingly. However, the Room hardware partners are not notably at the cheaper end of the market either.
None of this is probably much help for your quest but you asked about Roon
. There are some cheaper Sooloos/Meridian Network player solutions, including DACs available.
Peter
I like the Sooloos software and the cataloguing is very good. I think Roon has developed this system further (suggestions, linking etc) and has made it very good indeed but I have no direct experience.
If you are looking at Roon, check they haven't carried over an irritation from Sooloos, namely their own proprietary version of FLAC - I have to rip all my music to FLAC and then import the FLAC file into the Sooloos, so that I am not tied to Meridian forever. I keep a FLAC backup on a NAS, although Sooloos backs itself up.
I have Sooloos distributed across two properties in two countries across a WAN but it is not wireless as such, although with Meridian digital speakers and controllable by iPhone and iPad, it is near as dammit. It is made by Meridian and priced accordingly. However, the Room hardware partners are not notably at the cheaper end of the market either.
None of this is probably much help for your quest but you asked about Roon
. There are some cheaper Sooloos/Meridian Network player solutions, including DACs available.Peter
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