Will/Probate - Should I Do It Myself?
Discussion
Hello, finance types. I wonder if you could point your collective wisdom this way for a bit, with regards to a will and probate matters?
Just over a week ago, Mrs Vroom's Nan passed away. She was a widower who lived on her own and owned her home outright. She had no debts, but some savings.
My wife and her mum went to the house and got all the paperwork. We have sorted through it and now have to deal with the estate. We have a copy of the will, last amended in 1998, which names my mother-in-law as the sole beneficiary, so on the face of it, fairly simple. A local firm of solicitors are named in the will as the Executor. My mother-in-law has asked me to act on her behalf where possible as understandably she is grieving and could do without all the hassle.
I have visited the solicitors in question and to be frank, am not over confident they are going to be the best people for the job. The person I spoke to had, I think, just been promoted to the role from tea lady. She literally knew less than me with regards to wills/probate, and I'd only been on Google for an hour or so
. One thing that set alarm bells ringing was when she said you only need probate when there isn't a will 
.
It turns out that when the will was amended, the solicitors used a different firm to deal with probate matters - a contractor, if you like. That firm has long since gone, and they now use a different contractor, based in a different firm.
The firm named in the will has now sent the original will to this latest probate guy. I have written him an email and phoned the guy (of course, he didn't answer the phone, so left I a message), and he has yet to get back to me.
In the meantime, I have booked a valuation of Nan's home with a local estate agent, to get an idea of its worth (probably around £320k).
This has prompted me to look into what is actually involved in all this probate business, and if it is possible to do it yourself. Turns out it is!
So my question is, would I be an idiot to do this? The will is straightforward, and the estate comes under the threshold for Inheritance Tax (once the transfer of my wife's Grandad's allowance is taken into account).
Just over a week ago, Mrs Vroom's Nan passed away. She was a widower who lived on her own and owned her home outright. She had no debts, but some savings.
My wife and her mum went to the house and got all the paperwork. We have sorted through it and now have to deal with the estate. We have a copy of the will, last amended in 1998, which names my mother-in-law as the sole beneficiary, so on the face of it, fairly simple. A local firm of solicitors are named in the will as the Executor. My mother-in-law has asked me to act on her behalf where possible as understandably she is grieving and could do without all the hassle.
I have visited the solicitors in question and to be frank, am not over confident they are going to be the best people for the job. The person I spoke to had, I think, just been promoted to the role from tea lady. She literally knew less than me with regards to wills/probate, and I'd only been on Google for an hour or so
. One thing that set alarm bells ringing was when she said you only need probate when there isn't a will . It turns out that when the will was amended, the solicitors used a different firm to deal with probate matters - a contractor, if you like. That firm has long since gone, and they now use a different contractor, based in a different firm.
The firm named in the will has now sent the original will to this latest probate guy. I have written him an email and phoned the guy (of course, he didn't answer the phone, so left I a message), and he has yet to get back to me.
In the meantime, I have booked a valuation of Nan's home with a local estate agent, to get an idea of its worth (probably around £320k).
This has prompted me to look into what is actually involved in all this probate business, and if it is possible to do it yourself. Turns out it is!
So my question is, would I be an idiot to do this? The will is straightforward, and the estate comes under the threshold for Inheritance Tax (once the transfer of my wife's Grandad's allowance is taken into account).
I have dealt with the estates of deceased relatives on seven occasions. Usually it is straightforward with assets from mixed sources and only a few beneficiaries. It helps if there is a Will and you have been appointed as the executor, or one of them. There is a lot of paperwork and activities leading up to getting probate when required, and once obtained you can distribute assets as per the Will. Don't think it's a quick job, it is time consuming but as long as you're organised and know all the steps it is not a difficult job.
Professionals will charge something of the order of £15,000-£25,000 depending on the amount of work involved, so significant savings if you do the job, but you must do it correctly.
In your case, you are not the executor so you have no legal authority for doing as you intend. The solicitors have been so appointed. I don't know how you can get them to resign, and if that is possible there will be a Will without executors, which sounds unusual to me. I don't know how someone can be formally appointed an executor other than by the person making the Will, so it sounds to me as if that cannot happen in your case. Hopefully, other PHers will advise accordingly.
R.
Professionals will charge something of the order of £15,000-£25,000 depending on the amount of work involved, so significant savings if you do the job, but you must do it correctly.
In your case, you are not the executor so you have no legal authority for doing as you intend. The solicitors have been so appointed. I don't know how you can get them to resign, and if that is possible there will be a Will without executors, which sounds unusual to me. I don't know how someone can be formally appointed an executor other than by the person making the Will, so it sounds to me as if that cannot happen in your case. Hopefully, other PHers will advise accordingly.
R.
Thanks for all the replies so far.
Am I right in thinking the 'contract' for being the Executor was effectively drawn up when Nan named the firm on the will, and that they (or their representative) have the final say?
Does the family have no say or comeback if their fees seem unreasonable? The size of the fees mentioned above do seem a little high for what is effectively a bit of careful form filling.
Am I right in thinking the 'contract' for being the Executor was effectively drawn up when Nan named the firm on the will, and that they (or their representative) have the final say?
Does the family have no say or comeback if their fees seem unreasonable? The size of the fees mentioned above do seem a little high for what is effectively a bit of careful form filling.
I managed to get a firm of lawyers to resign as executors to my father's will, but they only did so as the partner who had drawn the will up had left and they transferred to her.
I am not sure there is anything we could have done if they had refused.
It is, after all, the deceased's will and not yours.
I am not sure there is anything we could have done if they had refused.
It is, after all, the deceased's will and not yours.
There's likely to be rather more that what you refer to as " a bit of careful form filling" based on my experience with what I'd consider to be reasonably straightforward cases that I dealt with.
The Will state who the executor (s) is/are. If the Will states its solicitors and they have subcontracted the role, the solicitors are still the executors in my view.
R.
The Will state who the executor (s) is/are. If the Will states its solicitors and they have subcontracted the role, the solicitors are still the executors in my view.
R.
If it's under IHT threshold, you may not need probate.
I was executor for my mums estate in 2013. It was well under the IHT threshold (under £100k), but I assumed I still needed to fill in the probate forms. However - a discussion with HMRC eventually resulted in them stating to me : If there is no IHT due, you do not need probate at all.
I was asked by organisations (banks etc.) whether probate had taken place, I simply said it wasn't necessary due to the size of the estate and that was enough - and nothing more than a copy of the will was needed to close accounts etc.
I found the entire process pretty simple.
I was executor for my mums estate in 2013. It was well under the IHT threshold (under £100k), but I assumed I still needed to fill in the probate forms. However - a discussion with HMRC eventually resulted in them stating to me : If there is no IHT due, you do not need probate at all.
I was asked by organisations (banks etc.) whether probate had taken place, I simply said it wasn't necessary due to the size of the estate and that was enough - and nothing more than a copy of the will was needed to close accounts etc.
I found the entire process pretty simple.
Check to make sure if the solicitor is the sole executor - it might be that MiL is also a joint executor, which would make it much more likely that the solicitor would stand aside and let MiL take the role.
I doubt you'll have much joy getting the solicitor to allow you to take over as executor, best chance is for MiL to request (and then delegate to you later). And if you're house estimated value is close, it could well go into IHT territory, unless she is a widow and has a spousal IHT allowance to utilise?
I guess if the solicitor was used to draft the will, at that point it's quite easy for them to 'volunteer' as executors (saves the hassle of putting it onto a grieving relative, blah blah), and the client may not even realise that it doesn't require a solicitor to do it, or the fees it's likely to rack up. I guess it could almost be construed as mis selling, if only the client were still alive!
I doubt you'll have much joy getting the solicitor to allow you to take over as executor, best chance is for MiL to request (and then delegate to you later). And if you're house estimated value is close, it could well go into IHT territory, unless she is a widow and has a spousal IHT allowance to utilise?
I guess if the solicitor was used to draft the will, at that point it's quite easy for them to 'volunteer' as executors (saves the hassle of putting it onto a grieving relative, blah blah), and the client may not even realise that it doesn't require a solicitor to do it, or the fees it's likely to rack up. I guess it could almost be construed as mis selling, if only the client were still alive!
The Leaper said:
I have dealt with the estates of deceased relatives on seven occasions. Usually it is straightforward with assets from mixed sources and only a few beneficiaries. It helps if there is a Will and you have been appointed as the executor, or one of them. There is a lot of paperwork and activities leading up to getting probate when required, and once obtained you can distribute assets as per the Will. Don't think it's a quick job, it is time consuming but as long as you're organised and know all the steps it is not a difficult job.
Professionals will charge something of the order of £15,000-£25,000 depending on the amount of work involved, so significant savings if you do the job, but you must do it correctly.
In your case, you are not the executor so you have no legal authority for doing as you intend. The solicitors have been so appointed. I don't know how you can get them to resign, and if that is possible there will be a Will without executors, which sounds unusual to me. I don't know how someone can be formally appointed an executor other than by the person making the Will, so it sounds to me as if that cannot happen in your case. Hopefully, other PHers will advise accordingly.
R.
I have to say that I've never heard of any professionals charging anything like that amount to take out probate, even with lots of issues to be resolved along the way. Surely, those figures must be including a lot of other items, not just for their work ?Professionals will charge something of the order of £15,000-£25,000 depending on the amount of work involved, so significant savings if you do the job, but you must do it correctly.
In your case, you are not the executor so you have no legal authority for doing as you intend. The solicitors have been so appointed. I don't know how you can get them to resign, and if that is possible there will be a Will without executors, which sounds unusual to me. I don't know how someone can be formally appointed an executor other than by the person making the Will, so it sounds to me as if that cannot happen in your case. Hopefully, other PHers will advise accordingly.
R.
I've taken out Grant of Probate myself, on 2 occasions, and found it fairly simple.
Thanks once again for all the input. Sorry, this is going to be a long post.
I have received word back from the person dealing with it all. I mentioned about getting a quote so we know what to expect cost wise and they said they needed to know more information, like the value of the house and all the money in Nan's accounts, plus any life policies (which I have since provided them with).
They also included this:
"I would mention that as we are appointed as the Executors it is for us to renounce rather than for you to seek to employ another firm elsewhere or to do it yourself."
We'll come back to that in a moment.
If I'm being honest, Nan was quite a naive person. Her late husband controlled all the household affairs when he was alive (her name wasn't even on the bank account) and once he died I think she was quite easily led when it came to finances. For example, going through her paperwork, we found no fewer than six various breakdown policies covering household utilities etc. and she was doubly covered on some of them. She didn't actually need any of them, as three of us in the family were qualified tradesmen, and would have done any work that was needed, for free.
These companies love using the "What if..." method of selling stuff and almost scare older, more gullible folk into buying their services.
It would not surprise me if this is how the solicitors got Nan to agree to them being the Executor. I suspect that they used her naivety and said something along the lines of "Oh, we can sort all that out - You don't want to trouble your grieving family with all of that" without telling her the cost implications of making them sole Executors.
However I have done a little digging, and found that the Law Society guidance states that at the time that the will is written, the solicitor should give an indication of likely costs to the person writing the will. The guidance notes go into more depth and it is clear that the solicitors should have clearly spelled out exactly what the costs would be. We can't find any such information, and Nan kept everything.
However I suspect they never even mentioned the cost (obviously I can't prove any of this, unfortunately).
The Law Society also has this to say on renouncing probate:
"In some cases where you have been appointed as an executor(s) you may be asked by the beneficiaries to renounce probate on the death of your client. You are not required to do so.
If you choose to consider such a request you should look at the reasons you or your firm were appointed as executor(s).
You should also consider whether, at the date of death, circumstances have changed from the time the client appointed you or your firm, and what is now in the best interests of the estate, including whether the administration of the estate could easily be handled by a lay executor."
Nan's estate is very straightforward, with only one beneficiary, and I have already done a fair amount of work with the various parties involved.
So far, the person dealing with it all hasn't been very forthcoming with any indication of costs, even though I have provided them with every single piece of information they said they need to provide a figure. A cynical person may even say they have been somewhat evasive
Law Society guidance https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/support-services/adv...
I have received word back from the person dealing with it all. I mentioned about getting a quote so we know what to expect cost wise and they said they needed to know more information, like the value of the house and all the money in Nan's accounts, plus any life policies (which I have since provided them with).
They also included this:
"I would mention that as we are appointed as the Executors it is for us to renounce rather than for you to seek to employ another firm elsewhere or to do it yourself."
We'll come back to that in a moment.
If I'm being honest, Nan was quite a naive person. Her late husband controlled all the household affairs when he was alive (her name wasn't even on the bank account) and once he died I think she was quite easily led when it came to finances. For example, going through her paperwork, we found no fewer than six various breakdown policies covering household utilities etc. and she was doubly covered on some of them. She didn't actually need any of them, as three of us in the family were qualified tradesmen, and would have done any work that was needed, for free.
These companies love using the "What if..." method of selling stuff and almost scare older, more gullible folk into buying their services.
It would not surprise me if this is how the solicitors got Nan to agree to them being the Executor. I suspect that they used her naivety and said something along the lines of "Oh, we can sort all that out - You don't want to trouble your grieving family with all of that" without telling her the cost implications of making them sole Executors.
However I have done a little digging, and found that the Law Society guidance states that at the time that the will is written, the solicitor should give an indication of likely costs to the person writing the will. The guidance notes go into more depth and it is clear that the solicitors should have clearly spelled out exactly what the costs would be. We can't find any such information, and Nan kept everything.
However I suspect they never even mentioned the cost (obviously I can't prove any of this, unfortunately).
The Law Society also has this to say on renouncing probate:
"In some cases where you have been appointed as an executor(s) you may be asked by the beneficiaries to renounce probate on the death of your client. You are not required to do so.
If you choose to consider such a request you should look at the reasons you or your firm were appointed as executor(s).
You should also consider whether, at the date of death, circumstances have changed from the time the client appointed you or your firm, and what is now in the best interests of the estate, including whether the administration of the estate could easily be handled by a lay executor."
Nan's estate is very straightforward, with only one beneficiary, and I have already done a fair amount of work with the various parties involved.
So far, the person dealing with it all hasn't been very forthcoming with any indication of costs, even though I have provided them with every single piece of information they said they need to provide a figure. A cynical person may even say they have been somewhat evasive
Law Society guidance https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/support-services/adv...
desolate said:
Was she sound of mind when she appointed them?
In all honesty, I cannot be certain one way or another. She was 68 when she wrote the will in 1988. She did suffer from dementia in later life. However from looking at the dates on the Will, I'm certain she would still have been grieving for her late husband, and would have been in a vulnerable state. Whether or not this has any bearing on anything, I have no idea. The Will was amended in 1998, after her son died, when my mother-in-Law was named as the sole beneficiary. Greg66 said:
You need to be looking at the Law Society guidance that was in place when the Will was executed, not the guidance now in force.
I have asked the Law Society if they can provide that information. Edited by Vroom101 on Wednesday 6th September 21:24
Your m-in-l is the sole beneficiary under the will, right? Does she have any siblings? Would she take everything on intestacy?
I'm not sure there is much to be gained by looking at the sound mind route. If you can show she wasn't, you set aside the will completely. That gets the solicitors out of the picture but it will cost a s
tload of money. Proving a factual state of affairs about her mental state twenty years ago will not be simple. And then if you win best case your m-in-l remains sole beneficiary (normally a person challenges a will to change the beneficiaries, not keep them the same). Worst case she shares the estate with someone else on intestacy (I've assumed there is no prior will to fall back on - if there is you need to look at that and who is executor in it).
If the solicitors don't renounce the executorship you'll need to show cause to remove them once they have started acting. Again, cost.
Try to persuade the solicitors that it is a simple estate and there is no need for them so they renounce voluntarily. Use the "stick" of the estate being simple and so there being no big fees to be made from it. Or use that stick to do a deal to cap their fees at a fixed sum everyone can live with.
Bottom line is that they've been appointed and getting shot of them against their will is likely to cost more than they will charge if you leave them be.
I'm not sure there is much to be gained by looking at the sound mind route. If you can show she wasn't, you set aside the will completely. That gets the solicitors out of the picture but it will cost a s
tload of money. Proving a factual state of affairs about her mental state twenty years ago will not be simple. And then if you win best case your m-in-l remains sole beneficiary (normally a person challenges a will to change the beneficiaries, not keep them the same). Worst case she shares the estate with someone else on intestacy (I've assumed there is no prior will to fall back on - if there is you need to look at that and who is executor in it). If the solicitors don't renounce the executorship you'll need to show cause to remove them once they have started acting. Again, cost.
Try to persuade the solicitors that it is a simple estate and there is no need for them so they renounce voluntarily. Use the "stick" of the estate being simple and so there being no big fees to be made from it. Or use that stick to do a deal to cap their fees at a fixed sum everyone can live with.
Bottom line is that they've been appointed and getting shot of them against their will is likely to cost more than they will charge if you leave them be.
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