Mercedes Benz W201 2.5 Diesel Automatic
Discussion
A thread on my little 190.
Approx six weeks ago, for reasons that now seem utterly unfathomable, I decided to advertise my W124 for sale after 8 years in my hands.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
It was a beautiful old car so it wasn't too much of a surprise when someone came to view it. I remember feeling mildly gutted when a deposit was left. The night before it was collected felt like the night before a funeral. I felt ill as it drove away to start a new life in Cambridgeshire.
I lasted 17 days before leaving a deposit on my 190
I love mechanically injected diesels from this era. I have owned a 1985 VW Scirocco since 1999. In 2010 it was fitted with the engine from a Mk2 Golf GTD. My friends thought I was bonkers. I knew within days that I'd made a very wise decision. I guess most of the manufacturers were starting to take a real interest in diesel from the late 70's onwards. Only three seemed to know what they were doing. In alphabetical order: Mercedes Benz, Peugeot - Citröen and Volkswagen Audi. Reliability and longevity from these diesels is legendary and we won't see those days again going forwards.
Having happily owned a petrol Mercedes for an extended period, I was looking forward to Diesel this time. Due to the location of the steering box, turbocharging wasn't possible for RHD markets. The 190 is 1,250kg, has 90bhp, 115 lbs ft and power heads to the rear wheels via a 4 speed torque converter that pulls away in 2nd to save fuel. You'd think it would be a low performing disaster zone on the roads. One week in I would remind everyone to not judge a book by it cover. The available performance causes zero issues. If you press the throttle beyond perhaps 60% from rest, it'll immediately drop down to first and you'll zip away much faster than the usual flow of traffic. Hold the pedal on the floor and upshifts don't take place until a very smooth 4,500rpm. They've certainly made the best of what they had available. Both engine and gearbox are incredibly smooth and refined. The 190 diesel is claimed to be the first car with a fully encapsulated engine bay. The undertray is vast and completely covers the entire gearbox and beyond, let alone the engine. There are also 'side pieces' for want of a better term that bridge the gap between the undertray upto the chassis rails / inner wings.
It's certainly very quiet inside when on the move. Barely any engine noise and just a slight rustle of wind noise at motorway speeds. 70mph is 3,100rpm. It'll pull smoothly and readily from there up to European speeds. There's a marine like hum in the background if engine speeds are around or over 4,000rpm.
Approx six weeks ago, for reasons that now seem utterly unfathomable, I decided to advertise my W124 for sale after 8 years in my hands.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
It was a beautiful old car so it wasn't too much of a surprise when someone came to view it. I remember feeling mildly gutted when a deposit was left. The night before it was collected felt like the night before a funeral. I felt ill as it drove away to start a new life in Cambridgeshire.
I lasted 17 days before leaving a deposit on my 190
I love mechanically injected diesels from this era. I have owned a 1985 VW Scirocco since 1999. In 2010 it was fitted with the engine from a Mk2 Golf GTD. My friends thought I was bonkers. I knew within days that I'd made a very wise decision. I guess most of the manufacturers were starting to take a real interest in diesel from the late 70's onwards. Only three seemed to know what they were doing. In alphabetical order: Mercedes Benz, Peugeot - Citröen and Volkswagen Audi. Reliability and longevity from these diesels is legendary and we won't see those days again going forwards.
Having happily owned a petrol Mercedes for an extended period, I was looking forward to Diesel this time. Due to the location of the steering box, turbocharging wasn't possible for RHD markets. The 190 is 1,250kg, has 90bhp, 115 lbs ft and power heads to the rear wheels via a 4 speed torque converter that pulls away in 2nd to save fuel. You'd think it would be a low performing disaster zone on the roads. One week in I would remind everyone to not judge a book by it cover. The available performance causes zero issues. If you press the throttle beyond perhaps 60% from rest, it'll immediately drop down to first and you'll zip away much faster than the usual flow of traffic. Hold the pedal on the floor and upshifts don't take place until a very smooth 4,500rpm. They've certainly made the best of what they had available. Both engine and gearbox are incredibly smooth and refined. The 190 diesel is claimed to be the first car with a fully encapsulated engine bay. The undertray is vast and completely covers the entire gearbox and beyond, let alone the engine. There are also 'side pieces' for want of a better term that bridge the gap between the undertray upto the chassis rails / inner wings.
It's certainly very quiet inside when on the move. Barely any engine noise and just a slight rustle of wind noise at motorway speeds. 70mph is 3,100rpm. It'll pull smoothly and readily from there up to European speeds. There's a marine like hum in the background if engine speeds are around or over 4,000rpm.
It's widely known that Mercedes threw everything at the 190. It was their first attempt at a smaller car and they didn't want to trip up on the quality front.
Comparing it with the W124 is a game of two halves so to speak. If it's made of steel and has had paint applied to it, you'd have to give the nod to the 190. True, I've got to arrange a repair to the NSR jacking point but the W124 needed similar attention in the same area. Everywhere else however seems to be completely rust free. And that includes all the places you can easily see in addition to those you can't. The four wheel arches are perfect, the door tops are perfect and under the bonnet and the front wishbone mount points are also perfect. The paint seemed to like flaking off the W124 around the wishbone mounts for reasons that weren't entirely obvious...
The interior however, in my opinion just cannot compete with the bigger car. They definitely haven't cheapened it. But they also haven't gone the extra mile either. There's glaring differences such as the 190 having one seal on the doors and the 124 having two. Then there's the more subtle differences. The sun visors are soft and flexible. Solid in the 124. The steering wheels, although both plastic, the 190's looks and feels very slightly cheaper. Carpets don't seem quite as deep etc etc.
Ergonomically, the 124 is ahead. The dials are all visible at all times. Even with the 190 seat fully lowered, I can't see the top of the rev counter or fuel gauge which is quite bizarre. The large steering wheel that makes access a little awkward, well I'm used to that now and it is simply no longer an issue.
Comparing it with the W124 is a game of two halves so to speak. If it's made of steel and has had paint applied to it, you'd have to give the nod to the 190. True, I've got to arrange a repair to the NSR jacking point but the W124 needed similar attention in the same area. Everywhere else however seems to be completely rust free. And that includes all the places you can easily see in addition to those you can't. The four wheel arches are perfect, the door tops are perfect and under the bonnet and the front wishbone mount points are also perfect. The paint seemed to like flaking off the W124 around the wishbone mounts for reasons that weren't entirely obvious...
The interior however, in my opinion just cannot compete with the bigger car. They definitely haven't cheapened it. But they also haven't gone the extra mile either. There's glaring differences such as the 190 having one seal on the doors and the 124 having two. Then there's the more subtle differences. The sun visors are soft and flexible. Solid in the 124. The steering wheels, although both plastic, the 190's looks and feels very slightly cheaper. Carpets don't seem quite as deep etc etc.
Ergonomically, the 124 is ahead. The dials are all visible at all times. Even with the 190 seat fully lowered, I can't see the top of the rev counter or fuel gauge which is quite bizarre. The large steering wheel that makes access a little awkward, well I'm used to that now and it is simply no longer an issue.
This little car has possible the most comprehensive service records I've ever come across.
The P.D.I. was carried out on 23 March 2003 at Esplanade Mercedes Benz, Newport, Isle of Wight. I'm sure they were familiar with the car as it was still being serviced there on its tenth birthday in 2003. That was its sixteenth service in 50,000 miles. Averaging 3,125 miles per oil change which is comfortably under the 3,750 miles Mercedes state is necessary for cars used for predominately shorter journeys.
Servicing continued using various independent garages and latterly, the Mercedes specialist M-Star in Manchester. They've looked after the car for the previous owner who enjoyed the car from 2012 until earlier this year. There's bills present for £8,000 of servicing work. £5,500 of that relates to M-Star since 2012. Hopefully I'll benefit from that! It's had three gearbox services in 5 years / 35,000 miles. Any work advised at a service was completed within a few weeks. Last serviced in March this year stated the rear brakes were half worn. They were replaced three weeks later...
The book is also fully stamped up to date with regard to brake fluid and coolant services.
I gave it a quick oil change when I got it as I would do with any car. The oil is remarkably clean for an old diesel. Most definitely not black. More a clean shade of grey if that makes sense.
The P.D.I. was carried out on 23 March 2003 at Esplanade Mercedes Benz, Newport, Isle of Wight. I'm sure they were familiar with the car as it was still being serviced there on its tenth birthday in 2003. That was its sixteenth service in 50,000 miles. Averaging 3,125 miles per oil change which is comfortably under the 3,750 miles Mercedes state is necessary for cars used for predominately shorter journeys.
Servicing continued using various independent garages and latterly, the Mercedes specialist M-Star in Manchester. They've looked after the car for the previous owner who enjoyed the car from 2012 until earlier this year. There's bills present for £8,000 of servicing work. £5,500 of that relates to M-Star since 2012. Hopefully I'll benefit from that! It's had three gearbox services in 5 years / 35,000 miles. Any work advised at a service was completed within a few weeks. Last serviced in March this year stated the rear brakes were half worn. They were replaced three weeks later...
The book is also fully stamped up to date with regard to brake fluid and coolant services.
I gave it a quick oil change when I got it as I would do with any car. The oil is remarkably clean for an old diesel. Most definitely not black. More a clean shade of grey if that makes sense.
There's always going to be a few jobs to do on a car this age and there's no exception here.
Repair NS jacking point
Investigate indicators not self cancelling
Clock doesn't keep time (God knows how I'll sort that..)
Gear selector bulb requires replacement
Seems to run cool. Will change thermostat.
Progress has already been made in other areas. Lashings of Bilt Hamber has been applied into box sections, to the floorpan, rear subframe mounts and the subframe itself.
The tyres have been changed for Michelin Cross Climate. I deliberated long and hard over these. The car will see most use from mid October to mid March. The Scirocco and Elise will see most use for the other half of the year. I have used winter tyres before. They're brilliant in the snow and ice but I feel they're just a little too compromised when it's just wet and windy. They don't seem to brake as well and they're a little noisier. Also, you've got the hassle of swapping them.
Michelin describe the Cross Climate as suitable for people for whom "Snow is the exception, rather than the rule". They're essentially a winter tread pattern made from a summer compound albeit with a little extra Silica in the mix. In tests against other all Season Tyres, they come first for wet and dry braking and third for their performance on snow. They are classified as a winter tyre for insurance purposes in counties that deem them necessary in winter.
So far, so good. They seem very quiet on the motorway which is good. The ride is comfortable and they seem to grip well in the dry. Time will tell re their performance in the depths of winter.
You can see their tread pattern below. I took a quick trip to Phoenix Motorsport to check the diff oil as I couldn't see any specific reference to it being changed in the service records and the diff was bone dry which is unusual in these old Mercedes as they typically seem to sweat a little.
I needn't have worried. The oil was clean and had obviously been changed recently. No harm to do it again however. Ollie still has all of his Mercedes dealer tools as he served his time on these cars when they were new.
Repair NS jacking point
Investigate indicators not self cancelling
Clock doesn't keep time (God knows how I'll sort that..)
Gear selector bulb requires replacement
Seems to run cool. Will change thermostat.
Progress has already been made in other areas. Lashings of Bilt Hamber has been applied into box sections, to the floorpan, rear subframe mounts and the subframe itself.
The tyres have been changed for Michelin Cross Climate. I deliberated long and hard over these. The car will see most use from mid October to mid March. The Scirocco and Elise will see most use for the other half of the year. I have used winter tyres before. They're brilliant in the snow and ice but I feel they're just a little too compromised when it's just wet and windy. They don't seem to brake as well and they're a little noisier. Also, you've got the hassle of swapping them.
Michelin describe the Cross Climate as suitable for people for whom "Snow is the exception, rather than the rule". They're essentially a winter tread pattern made from a summer compound albeit with a little extra Silica in the mix. In tests against other all Season Tyres, they come first for wet and dry braking and third for their performance on snow. They are classified as a winter tyre for insurance purposes in counties that deem them necessary in winter.
So far, so good. They seem very quiet on the motorway which is good. The ride is comfortable and they seem to grip well in the dry. Time will tell re their performance in the depths of winter.
You can see their tread pattern below. I took a quick trip to Phoenix Motorsport to check the diff oil as I couldn't see any specific reference to it being changed in the service records and the diff was bone dry which is unusual in these old Mercedes as they typically seem to sweat a little.
I needn't have worried. The oil was clean and had obviously been changed recently. No harm to do it again however. Ollie still has all of his Mercedes dealer tools as he served his time on these cars when they were new.
Edited by MJK 24 on Thursday 7th September 22:59
Edited by MJK 24 on Thursday 7th September 23:03
Superb stuff, I've always liked the 190s, they have a really elegant profile. It sounds like this one has been and is being well looked after.
I agree about the diesel manufactures mentioned. I had both the Passat and Mk2 Golf GTD fitted with that high compression 1.6 Turbo and both were excellent (and ran on waste vegetable oil too).
All the best for your ownership!
Cheers,
Tom
I agree about the diesel manufactures mentioned. I had both the Passat and Mk2 Golf GTD fitted with that high compression 1.6 Turbo and both were excellent (and ran on waste vegetable oil too).
All the best for your ownership!
Cheers,
Tom
Good write up, thank you. I agree with you about the interior. While the quality is very high, I prefer the 124's ergonomics. How are you getting along with the big wheel?
These normally aspirated diesels apparently are a lot cleaner than the turbodiesel which were common in the last decade.
I passed one of these on the A621(M) outside Leeds yesterday morning but I am guessing it was not this one?
These normally aspirated diesels apparently are a lot cleaner than the turbodiesel which were common in the last decade.
I passed one of these on the A621(M) outside Leeds yesterday morning but I am guessing it was not this one?
Stegel said:
The car looks great, and as you say a phenomenally complete service record. I hope it serves you well and it sounds like it will be with you for the long term.
Thank you. I've had the Scirocco for 18 years and the Elise, 13 years. I know what I like and I'm not really into change for the sake of change so I suspect I'll have it a while!appletonn said:
Fabulous thing!
Love the detail of the extensive service history
Out of interest, what sort of MPG is it giving you?
Thank you. Unsure re MPG as it had a lot of diesel in when I collected it a week ago. Will report back when I've filled up as I do have an app on my phone for that very purpose.Love the detail of the extensive service history
Out of interest, what sort of MPG is it giving you?
tobinen said:
Sounds as though you've made a good find. Cruise control as well by the looks of it
I think you may be looking at the photo of the W124 interior! That did have (temperamental) cruise control. It's a shame this doesn't but I think the 190 Diesels tend to be quite minimal in their specification.r129sl said:
Good write up, thank you. I agree with you about the interior. While the quality is very high, I prefer the 124's ergonomics. How are you getting along with the big wheel?
These normally aspirated diesels apparently are a lot cleaner than the turbodiesel which were common in the last decade.
I passed one of these on the A621(M) outside Leeds yesterday morning but I am guessing it was not this one?
The big wheel isn't really an issue after a few days. I'm 6'2" so I've put the seat on the floor which enables easier entry and exit. I still can't see the top of the dials fully but it's not really an issue all told.These normally aspirated diesels apparently are a lot cleaner than the turbodiesel which were common in the last decade.
I passed one of these on the A621(M) outside Leeds yesterday morning but I am guessing it was not this one?
I was able to have a Range Rover like driving position in the W124 which gave great visibility of both the instrumentation and outside world.
I may look at a wide angle mirror for the OS. They factory ones don't give the best view in the world. Especially when compared to modern machinery with their van like mirrors.
MJK 24 said:
I may look at a wide angle mirror for the OS. They factory ones don't give the best view in the world. Especially when compared to modern machinery with their van like mirrors.
It's very easy to miss things in the blindspot in both the 124 and the 201. If you find a high quality item, let me know. I think Merc may do them.Glad you are happy with yours OP. 
Years ago a motor-trader mate of mine had a 190d 2.0 that was an auto - he reckoned it was the most dangerous car he had ever had! I went down to Lydden with him in it once. Roundabouts were dangerous - a milk-float would have been quicker in a drag race.
What were they thinking?
But 190s worked fine in petrol form - I loved my manual 1989 190e. Best Mercedes I have had!
Years ago a motor-trader mate of mine had a 190d 2.0 that was an auto - he reckoned it was the most dangerous car he had ever had! I went down to Lydden with him in it once. Roundabouts were dangerous - a milk-float would have been quicker in a drag race.
What were they thinking?
But 190s worked fine in petrol form - I loved my manual 1989 190e. Best Mercedes I have had!
The slowest 190 D is faster than most buses, trucks, tractors, diggers and such like. They all seem to manage just fine. It is just a matter of driving within the car's abilities: the driver who pulls out into a tiny gap without the power to accelerate up to traffic speed in good time, betrays his own failings, not his car's.
r129sl said:
MJK 24 said:
I may look at a wide angle mirror for the OS. They factory ones don't give the best view in the world. Especially when compared to modern machinery with their van like mirrors.
It's very easy to miss things in the blindspot in both the 124 and the 201. If you find a high quality item, let me know. I think Merc may do them.Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff