Ignorance is this
Discussion
I've been trawling through past conversations/arguments about the Noble's excellent braking performance and a question springs to mind: why hasn't the Noble got ABS?
I'm getting the M12 - just try and stop me - but friends of mine who know nothing of the car say they're not getting in a car that quick that doesn't have ABS - especially if it's wet. So what's the score?
I'm getting the M12 - just try and stop me - but friends of mine who know nothing of the car say they're not getting in a car that quick that doesn't have ABS - especially if it's wet. So what's the score?
ABS doesn’t stop you quicker; it just helps you out if you don’t get your braking right.
If you ABS you take almost twice as long to stop compared to proper conventional braking (if you don’t lock up) and when you have ABS you tend to forget all about proper braking and rely on the ABS. Without ABS you have to be more careful, and so you are, especially in the wet, but the M400 brakes are VG and the grip in the dry is fantastic, so much so that with proper controlled braking you can stop your car in less time/distance than most other cars with or without ABS
In snow not having ABS is an advantage because if you lock up you create a build up of show in front of the tyres which is better than having ABS cause you to roll over this.
OK I’m not going to win this one, for ABS is good and if fitted would help many people many times on the road, especially in the wet. But the fun of the Noble is lightweight and the driver being at one with the machine. I only locked up once LEARNING limits. I then drove back from Spa in very heavy rain (not recommended in a M400 with corsa tyres which aquaplane badly. But KNOWING THIS I left far more distance between me and the car in front, drove much smother with more discipline and awareness and go home without any drama. Who knows if I had ABS I may well have drove faster, closer or with less care and perhaps even crashed?
I suggest DON’T BY a M400 if you want to go fast in the wet ( and I don’t mean damp I mean PUDDLES.
If I had the choice I would like ABS so long as I could switch it off when I wanted, AND remove the extra weight.
I think the M400 could easily manage and extra 200bhp, its IS THAT GOOD and I will be seeking this out, and I still will be VERY happy and VERY confident in the brakes WITHOUT ABS.
But if I was to let others drive me in the beast I would totally agree that ABS is essential.
AutocomTom
If you ABS you take almost twice as long to stop compared to proper conventional braking (if you don’t lock up) and when you have ABS you tend to forget all about proper braking and rely on the ABS. Without ABS you have to be more careful, and so you are, especially in the wet, but the M400 brakes are VG and the grip in the dry is fantastic, so much so that with proper controlled braking you can stop your car in less time/distance than most other cars with or without ABS
In snow not having ABS is an advantage because if you lock up you create a build up of show in front of the tyres which is better than having ABS cause you to roll over this.
OK I’m not going to win this one, for ABS is good and if fitted would help many people many times on the road, especially in the wet. But the fun of the Noble is lightweight and the driver being at one with the machine. I only locked up once LEARNING limits. I then drove back from Spa in very heavy rain (not recommended in a M400 with corsa tyres which aquaplane badly. But KNOWING THIS I left far more distance between me and the car in front, drove much smother with more discipline and awareness and go home without any drama. Who knows if I had ABS I may well have drove faster, closer or with less care and perhaps even crashed?
I suggest DON’T BY a M400 if you want to go fast in the wet ( and I don’t mean damp I mean PUDDLES.
If I had the choice I would like ABS so long as I could switch it off when I wanted, AND remove the extra weight.
I think the M400 could easily manage and extra 200bhp, its IS THAT GOOD and I will be seeking this out, and I still will be VERY happy and VERY confident in the brakes WITHOUT ABS.
But if I was to let others drive me in the beast I would totally agree that ABS is essential.
AutocomTom
ABS is one of those things that it's usefulness is limited if you have appropiate driving skills.
It's main advantage is to allow steering to continue whilst you at/very near the braking limit - however it does increase braking distance to do so.
People survived pretty well for 80+ years without it, and it's certainly a boon for the "lower skill" driver. However, if you go on a Cadence or similar driving skills course you'll learn that it's not all it's popular image would suggest.
If you drive a car without ABS you just drive appropiatly when the conditions dictate. One could postulate that the reversal of the decline in road deaths is beacuse people are now driving 'as they would in the dry' because they believe ABS/DSC/etc. will defy the laws of physics...
J
It's main advantage is to allow steering to continue whilst you at/very near the braking limit - however it does increase braking distance to do so.
People survived pretty well for 80+ years without it, and it's certainly a boon for the "lower skill" driver. However, if you go on a Cadence or similar driving skills course you'll learn that it's not all it's popular image would suggest.
If you drive a car without ABS you just drive appropiatly when the conditions dictate. One could postulate that the reversal of the decline in road deaths is beacuse people are now driving 'as they would in the dry' because they believe ABS/DSC/etc. will defy the laws of physics...
J
2 things to ponder-
1) How often do you activate your ABS in your current car and under what circumstances?
2) F1 cars don't have ABS, they race in the rain. Not to suggest anyone here could drive a 500 KG car with 800 HP in the rain but 1100 KG with 425 HP on the street is reasonable.
1) How often do you activate your ABS in your current car and under what circumstances?
2) F1 cars don't have ABS, they race in the rain. Not to suggest anyone here could drive a 500 KG car with 800 HP in the rain but 1100 KG with 425 HP on the street is reasonable.
jmg944t said:
2 things to ponder-
1) How often do you activate your ABS in your current car and under what circumstances?
Just what I was thinking on reading this re-run "why-don't-Noble's-have-ABS" thread. Acts of God aside, good driving style and thinking ahead negates the need for ABS (IMHO!)...
5 years with Merc - 1-2 times (and then only marginal activation).
1 year in Noble - not yet!
I have (maybe stupidly) experimented with the braces on a wide open road, to see where the limits are. I was amazed at just how hard I could brake on a dry road before the brakes locked up and even then it was really easy to lift off just a tiny bit to release them again. I am not driving master and think I NEED to go on a skills course but I have not found any lack of confidence through not having ABS.
As others say. I had a BMW 330ci for over 2 years and drove it pretty hard and must say I remember the ABS kicking in only 3-4 times, 2-3 of them in the wet.
edited to say.........Now the DSC on that car was a different story, if it was not there the car would no longer either. My biggest worry and the reason I was so nervous when I first got the Noble is that I grew dependant on the BMW's DSC to fix all my errors. Which it did blissfully, but it made me a worse driver I think. (I'm too honest!!)
GN
>> Edited by Mr Noble on Monday 11th April 10:42
As others say. I had a BMW 330ci for over 2 years and drove it pretty hard and must say I remember the ABS kicking in only 3-4 times, 2-3 of them in the wet.
edited to say.........Now the DSC on that car was a different story, if it was not there the car would no longer either. My biggest worry and the reason I was so nervous when I first got the Noble is that I grew dependant on the BMW's DSC to fix all my errors. Which it did blissfully, but it made me a worse driver I think. (I'm too honest!!)
GN
>> Edited by Mr Noble on Monday 11th April 10:42
The real advantage of ABS is that a 4 channel system can individually modulate the braking to EACH wheel. It doesn't matter how good you think you are, you can't do that! On the road, and even on track with a suitably stand offish system, I don't see much but advantages.
As discussed on previous threads on this topic, the main factor for Noble is most likely cost.
I did find upon testing a 111R elise (prior the the Noble purchase) that although the brakes felt great and ABS was reassuring, there was a lot of pedal travel making it very uncomfortable and difficult to heal and toe.
Have they sorted this yet?
Although in saying that I find it hard in the Noble, I call it ankle and toe now!!!
Have they sorted this yet?
Although in saying that I find it hard in the Noble, I call it ankle and toe now!!!
Mr Noble said:
I did find upon testing a 111R elise (prior the the Noble purchase) that although the brakes felt great and ABS was reassuring, there was a lot of pedal travel making it very uncomfortable and difficult to heal and toe.
Have they sorted this yet?
Although in saying that I find it hard in the Noble, I call it ankle and toe now!!!
It still ships with that dead travel. Some people have modified their own linkages to compensate, but most just get used to it.
ABS is in existence to keep lesser drivers steering when panicked. It does this well. If you are into ABS on a dry street without having to avoid an idiot you are not being responsible. Maximum braking happens at tire speed = ~80% road speed. ABS won't do this. On a track there is good reason to NOT have ABS. When in an out of control spin when you are along for the ride the rule is "both feet in." This is for 2 reason, one to get you stopped quickly, and two so that you follow a predictable path off the track so others may avoid you. The 2nd part does not happen with ABS, the tires still turn and you don't go straight in the direction momentum takes you. This can cause you to return onto the track and into oncoming cars. Not good. Having had 4 track cars, two with and two without ABS, I prefer it but mostly because my local track has 2 unweighted braking zones over hills that are problematic without ABS.
If you find you are locking the brakes on track try this... As you feel the brakes lock curl your toes. It will reduce the braking pressure just enough to regain full traction. When it becomes second nature and you use it every corner to threshold brake you can move you braking zone down track and gain (lose?) more time. Your results may vary
If you find you are locking the brakes on track try this... As you feel the brakes lock curl your toes. It will reduce the braking pressure just enough to regain full traction. When it becomes second nature and you use it every corner to threshold brake you can move you braking zone down track and gain (lose?) more time. Your results may vary
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