A Barcalona Type Beating Of Peacful Protesters In Uk
Discussion
just to throw a handgrenade out there
orgreave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave#A...
arguably it has happened and no doubt will again
we have also used cavalry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre
orgreave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave#A...
arguably it has happened and no doubt will again
we have also used cavalry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre
citizensm1th said:
just to throw a handgrenade out there
orgreave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave#A...
arguably it has happened and no doubt will again
we have also used cavalry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre
The circumstances around Orgreave are in dispute to put it mildly and the miners were generally behaving like thugs at the time. orgreave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave#A...
arguably it has happened and no doubt will again
we have also used cavalry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre
And Peterloo was almost 200 years ago, FFS.
I think there were times in Northern Ireland which would bear comparison, however.
1972
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Free_Festiva...
playwright Heathcote Williams and his partner Diana Senior successfully sued David Holdsworth, the Thames Valley Chief Constable for creating a riotous situation in which the police attacked the plaintiffs.
1985
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beanfi...
Two years after the event, a Wiltshire police sergeant was found guilty of Actual Bodily Harm as a consequence of injuries incurred by a member of the convoy during the Battle of the Beanfield.[4]
In February 1991 a civil court judgement awarded 21 of the travellers £24,000 in damages for false imprisonment, damage to property and wrongful arrest.
just a couple more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Free_Festiva...
playwright Heathcote Williams and his partner Diana Senior successfully sued David Holdsworth, the Thames Valley Chief Constable for creating a riotous situation in which the police attacked the plaintiffs.
1985
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beanfi...
Two years after the event, a Wiltshire police sergeant was found guilty of Actual Bodily Harm as a consequence of injuries incurred by a member of the convoy during the Battle of the Beanfield.[4]
In February 1991 a civil court judgement awarded 21 of the travellers £24,000 in damages for false imprisonment, damage to property and wrongful arrest.
just a couple more
citizensm1th said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I've seen football fans behave very badly, but I've also seen police deal with fans, who were nothing more than boisterous, in the most brutal and over the top manner.
But the op said it would never happenIf the government and police management put a load of officers in a situation where they are well equipped, hopelessly outnumbered, and told to stop the people peacefully doing what they want to do..... well, it's almost inevitable really. Especially when you have a tiny minority of officers who are complete psychos and are spoiling for a fight. It only takes one to set it off.
From those videos of what's happened in Catalonia, I was only surprised the crowd didn't rush the police who started lashing out. The crowd was so much larger than the numbers of police that they would not have had a chance. I really think the Spanish government have dropped the ball on this one, beating on elderly people trying to do something peacefully is not a good look. I have no opinion on Catalan independence, but am now firmly of the opinion that the Spanish government and Spanish plod are asshats.
spookly said:
citizensm1th said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I've seen football fans behave very badly, but I've also seen police deal with fans, who were nothing more than boisterous, in the most brutal and over the top manner.
But the op said it would never happenIf the government and police management put a load of officers in a situation where they are well equipped, hopelessly outnumbered, and told to stop the people peacefully doing what they want to do..... well, it's almost inevitable really. Especially when you have a tiny minority of officers who are complete psychos and are spoiling for a fight. It only takes one to set it off.
From those videos of what's happened in Catalonia, I was only surprised the crowd didn't rush the police who started lashing out. The crowd was so much larger than the numbers of police that they would not have had a chance. I really think the Spanish government have dropped the ball on this one, beating on elderly people trying to do something peacefully is not a good look. I have no opinion on Catalan independence, but am now firmly of the opinion that the Spanish government and Spanish plod are asshats.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Would Never happen.
Were our police to encounter peaceful large scale and absolute defiance of the law as is happening in Barcelona nobody would be hurt I'm hoping.
Our police would never react in the same way to similar circumstances I hope.
Can our resident BiBs reassure us?
A lot of people don't understand how thin the veneer of civilized society actually is.Were our police to encounter peaceful large scale and absolute defiance of the law as is happening in Barcelona nobody would be hurt I'm hoping.
Our police would never react in the same way to similar circumstances I hope.
Can our resident BiBs reassure us?
It doesn't take much for a mass of people to rally against authority and law & order.
Even in the UK we saw how London sprung in to riots where the police had no power but to watch.
Then on smaller scales how unions rally people to demonstrate and riot each time a non-Labour government get in to power.
When things gain 'momentum' then law and order are thrown out of the window. (Self confessed by unions just recently).
Going away from political scenes - just think how quickly law and order would vanish if there were a water or food shortage in the UK.
So, yes it could happen in the UK, it could happen very easily.
The Scottish could follow suit if they wanted. their government have the power to call referendums, against the will of the UK government.
There would be a display of upholding law and order until it quickly broke down.
Duke of Kidderminster said:
The Spanish police were doomed to fail no matter how they reacted because the media had been hoodwinked in the first place.
Err, I think that is called the wife-beater's defence: she provoked me, so I am justified in having hit her. Nobody forced the Spanish police to beat up pensioners and young girls who were offering them no violence.
Still, if the Caudillo (sorry, Prime Minister) really does mean to uphold the rule of law, I look forwards to the prosecution of those police officers who used excessive violence and indulged in unprovoked attacks.
psi310398 said:
Duke of Kidderminster said:
The Spanish police were doomed to fail no matter how they reacted because the media had been hoodwinked in the first place.
Err, I think that is called the wife-beater's defence: she provoked me, so I am justified in having hit her. Nobody forced the Spanish police to beat up pensioners and young girls who were offering them no violence.
Still, if the Caudillo (sorry, Prime Minister) really does mean to uphold the rule of law, I look forwards to the prosecution of those police officers who used excessive violence and indulged in unprovoked attacks.
there's a lot of backstory here and the news just focused on the violent pictures. given that any police intervention was bound to provide great news pictures Madrid should have considered just ignoring it. they were never going to look good. Things were calmer under Franco, dissenters might disappear more quietly!
Atomic12C said:
psi310398 said:
Nobody forced the Spanish police to beat up pensioners and young girls who were offering them no violence.
True, but viewing from the 'other side', what is the duty of a police officer when the law is being broken in front of them?The police should have used their common sense. let them vote.
That's daft to make it illegal - completely unenforceable. The Spanish govt should have ignored/discussed/changed whatever they wanted if/when the votes were cast. If voting for this was illegal then no heed should have been paid to this or it could have been discussed etc But to go in with police was a daft move by the govt.
Scotland had a vote and it was done peacefully. If Cornwall wants a vote - let them the UK govt doesn't have to listen or act.
Edited by superlightr on Monday 2nd October 10:47
Edited by superlightr on Monday 2nd October 10:48
Atomic12C said:
True, but viewing from the 'other side', what is the duty of a police officer when the law is being broken in front of them?
To act to uphold the law with decorum, restraint and proportionality and certainly not to break it themselves?And to challenge the underlying assumption, it should be noted that most of the victims of police assault were breaking no laws.
Even in Spain, it is not (yet) a crime to disagree with the Prime Minister, nor indeed to embark on peaceful protest.
psi310398 said:
And to challenge the underlying assumption, it should be noted that most of the victims of police assault were breaking no laws.
Yet the Catalan politicians were setting a clear example of how they thought it was acceptable to break laws. They were practically baiting this entire situation knowing that when it finally kicked off it would make them look sweet and innocent.Political arrogance on this scale should be stopped as it's how civil wars start. They lost the first referendum a mere 3 years ago but continued with their nonsense. You think this is acceptable?
Just playing devil's advocate but the argument would be put that the police have a duty to uphold the law.
When they are obstructed in their duty they will then have to use reasonable force, if that force is met with opposition, then what is deemed reasonable is ramped up.... just as you see with many protests/riots.
When they are obstructed in their duty they will then have to use reasonable force, if that force is met with opposition, then what is deemed reasonable is ramped up.... just as you see with many protests/riots.
Atomic12C said:
Just playing devil's advocate but the argument would be put that the police have a duty to uphold the law.
When they are obstructed in their duty they will then have to use reasonable force, if that force is met with opposition, then what is deemed reasonable is ramped up.... just as you see with many protests/riots.
That said there must be a proportionality to any response. I couldn't see or rather I hope never to see the likes of a mixed crowd of silly wee girl students and elbow patched tweed jacket wearing bespectacled middled aged lecturers occupying a uni library, sitting down on the floor singing "we shall overcome" in protest to, say, a ramping up of student fees suddenly getting their skulls cracked by out of control riot police. When they are obstructed in their duty they will then have to use reasonable force, if that force is met with opposition, then what is deemed reasonable is ramped up.... just as you see with many protests/riots.
The police want them out. There defiance of the law is absolute. The threat to the health and safety of the police is zero . Would you be happy to see a full force attack?
Tannedbaldhead said:
That said there must be a proportionality to any response. I couldn't see or rather I hope never to see the likes of a mixed crowd of silly wee girl students and elbow patched tweed jacket wearing bespectacled middled aged lecturers occupying a uni library, sitting down on the floor singing "we shall overcome" in protest to, say, a ramping up of student fees suddenly getting their skulls cracked by out of control riot police.
The police want them out. There defiance of the law is absolute. The threat to the health and safety of the police is zero . Would you be happy to see a full force attack?
Its not about what I think to be honest. This is Spain's issue and also an issue for democracy in general.The police want them out. There defiance of the law is absolute. The threat to the health and safety of the police is zero . Would you be happy to see a full force attack?
If you employ a system of rule whereby those that 'rule' are there to serve the people and its the people who both vote you in and have the power to remove you - ie. democracy.... then when you deny people the right to vote on issues that affect them, you have a conflict with democracy.
I can see both sides of the issue but I am not siding with either - firmly on the fence with this one.
If Spain allow Catalan to become independent then Spain's economy is wrecked. Is that fair on the population of Spain - maybe yes for the price of democracy, maybe no if you look at the cost that families will have to pay.
On one of your points in reply - proportionality of response - again this comes down to a balance of the above, and also in reaction to the scene on the ground.
Like I say - I'm just playing a bit of devil's advocate on this as there are two clear sides with a muddy overlap.
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