Eagle E types, Singer Porsches etc and the DVLA
Discussion
Have these also been caught up in the latest changes by the dvla? will they all have to be re registered de marqued and slapped with a q plate in the UK? given that they are radically altered from original.
It becomes quite a long list if you think about it, GTO engineering 250 SWB, D type conversions like Low Drags, Aston Works cars etc etc etc.
Every rally car ever built, the mind boggles............
It becomes quite a long list if you think about it, GTO engineering 250 SWB, D type conversions like Low Drags, Aston Works cars etc etc etc.
Every rally car ever built, the mind boggles............
Edited by PAUL500 on Tuesday 3rd October 10:37
I suspect the new rules have been introduced to catch all those that haven't correctly registered their cars, I also think that obvious body changes (like having a Cobra kit still declared and registered as the doner car taking advantage of tax exemption) will be flagged up as something will be introduced into the MOT at some point, sadly some people registering brand new cars as historics, plus others that have ignored the rules introduced in 1988 (home builds as in theory any manufacturers 'should' have ensured the product they were selling was complient to legislation at the time)
It will be interesting to see if the draft proposals for 'substantially altered' are amended as at the moment the power increase of 15% is very open to interpretation as where do you draw the top figure for the model from, especially if a manufacturer had a tuning department that you could buy parts from to increase the power of the car, they were (and are) factory parts, plus there has never been a rule saying you can't increase the power of you car.
I can understand having a rule that says modifications must be 'period' or 'age related' to the car in question, so yes you loose your VHI status if you drop a Vauxhall lump in your Ford, but I can't see the problem in dropping a twin cam in a 1300 MK1 Escort if everything else is upgraded to match
It will be interesting to see if the draft proposals for 'substantially altered' are amended as at the moment the power increase of 15% is very open to interpretation as where do you draw the top figure for the model from, especially if a manufacturer had a tuning department that you could buy parts from to increase the power of the car, they were (and are) factory parts, plus there has never been a rule saying you can't increase the power of you car.
I can understand having a rule that says modifications must be 'period' or 'age related' to the car in question, so yes you loose your VHI status if you drop a Vauxhall lump in your Ford, but I can't see the problem in dropping a twin cam in a 1300 MK1 Escort if everything else is upgraded to match
PAUL500 said:
Have these also been caught up in the latest changes by the dvla? will they all have to be re registered de marqued and slapped with a q plate in the UK? given that they are radically altered from original.
It becomes quite a long list if you think about it, GTO engineering 250 SWB, D type conversions like Low Drags, Aston Works cars etc etc etc.
Every rally car ever built, the mind boggles...
Ignore the MOT exemption scaremongering - nothing relevant's changed in decades as far as "reconstructed" or "radically modified" cars go.It becomes quite a long list if you think about it, GTO engineering 250 SWB, D type conversions like Low Drags, Aston Works cars etc etc etc.
Every rally car ever built, the mind boggles...
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/reconstruc...
I don't recall the cost of the conversion being one of the factors in the 8pt rule.
As for Aston Works, looks like it's already caught up with them...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=16...
vpr said:
I read it as, if you carry on MOT ing ur car even though it’s over 40 yrs old it doesn’t matter if it’s changed from original?
Yes...and no, if you have a car that will fall into the new group and it had substantial modifications to the original chassis or Monocoque after 1988 it should have gone through the correct processes at the time to either retain or loose its registration number, if it didn't and you have something like a 1971 registered Mini that was converted to a Shorty in 1990 you are in danger of the car being taken off the road unless it goes through the current system (which is difficult but not impossible) as 5 of the points out of the 8 it needs must come from an unmodified monocoque or chassis, how this gets detected will now probably be in the hands of the MOT system (possibly) If you have left the structure alone then there 'should' be no problem with continuing to MOT
I appreciate the basis of this has been place for decades but it appears the dvla are now specifically widening the parameters way beyond home builds/kit cars in relation to classics which most of those I listed fall under.
Quite a minefield as every rally car whether it be a factory backed car or a privateer will have been radically altered from original and its power increased by more than 15%
In effect every cosworth that was been tinkered with should really be on a q plate for example under this specific ruling.
Quite a minefield as every rally car whether it be a factory backed car or a privateer will have been radically altered from original and its power increased by more than 15%
In effect every cosworth that was been tinkered with should really be on a q plate for example under this specific ruling.
mk1coopers said:
vpr said:
I read it as, if you carry on MOT ing ur car even though it’s over 40 yrs old it doesn’t matter if it’s changed from original?
Yes...and no, if you have a car that will fall into the new group and it had substantial modifications to the original chassis or Monocoque after 1988 it should have gone through the correct processes at the time to either retain or loose its registration number, if it didn't and you have something like a 1971 registered Mini that was converted to a Shorty in 1990 you are in danger of the car being taken off the road unless it goes through the current system (which is difficult but not impossible) as 5 of the points out of the 8 it needs must come from an unmodified monocoque or chassis, how this gets detected will now probably be in the hands of the MOT system (possibly) If you have left the structure alone then there 'should' be no problem with continuing to MOT
Is it not the case with the draft plans that if you had a car which previously did not need an MOT due to it age and it’s power to weight increased by 15% you will now need to MOT it if done after 1988 before 1988 all ok. If you bought a car after 1988 and did not ask the previous owner when it’s power to weight increase down to you to declare it was pre 1988.
All a bit mad, I my view.
All a bit mad, I my view.
dig123 said:
Is it not the case with the draft plans that if you had a car which previously did not need an MOT due to it age and it’s power to weight increased by 15% you will now need to MOT it if done after 1988 before 1988 all ok. If you bought a car after 1988 and did not ask the previous owner when it’s power to weight increase down to you to declare it was pre 1988.
Pre-1960 cars that have had a power increase since 1988 - but haven't been modified enough to fall foul of the 8pt rule - are the only ones negatively affected by this change.I read it that if its had a power increase/and or been radically altered from original then its q plate time? but only in relation to what DVLA classify as a classic?
However how can they have a 2 tier system in place where a classic cannot have an uprated engine but a regular car getting an MOT can? so no doubt that's the next step.
However how can they have a 2 tier system in place where a classic cannot have an uprated engine but a regular car getting an MOT can? so no doubt that's the next step.
PAUL500 said:
I read it that if its had a power increase/and or been radically altered from original then its q plate time? but only in relation to what DVLA classify as a classic?
Power increase is nothing to do with Q-plate. Those regs aren't changing, and haven't changed for decades.The current changes are ONLY about MOT exemption.
PAUL500 said:
However how can they have a 2 tier system in place where a classic cannot have an uprated engine but a regular car getting an MOT can? so no doubt that's the next step.
A classic can have a power uprate - it just still needs to be MOTed.Edited by TooMany2cvs on Tuesday 3rd October 22:04
PAUL500 said:
I read it that if its had a power increase/and or been radically altered from original then its q plate time? but only in relation to what DVLA classify as a classic?
However how can they have a 2 tier system in place where a classic cannot have an uprated engine but a regular car getting an MOT can? so no doubt that's the next step.
Paul not sure it is q plate time as q plates fall into the radically altered tier. It will just no longer be Vehicle of Historical Intrest and need MOT.However how can they have a 2 tier system in place where a classic cannot have an uprated engine but a regular car getting an MOT can? so no doubt that's the next step.
TooMany2cvs said:
Which part of the draft originality test mentions structural modifications?
The last part of the second criteria mentions body / appearance changes, also at the bottom of the first page, the last paragraph gives you the link to the 8 point system in relation to the vehicle being radically altered / reconstructed Edited by mk1coopers on Wednesday 4th October 07:06
mk1coopers said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Which part of the draft originality test mentions structural modifications?
The last part of the second criteria mentions body / appearance changes, also at the bottom of the first page, the last paragraph gives you the link to the 8 point system in relation to the vehicle being radically altered / reconstructed The two tests for 40yo+ MOT exemption are (in the current draft)...
15% more power to weight, since 1988
-or-
Q-plate/reconstructed/kit - according to the normal definitions.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Essentially then, any pre 1960 car is going to get caught out via the declaration form to the owner, and now end up on a q plate, all as a result of the qualification procedures for non mot status, if its been structurally modified.
So that would either now (or in the future with the rolling exemption date) encompass the early Astons conversions, 250 GTE donors, E types etc but post the rolling 1960s cut off date if the same mods have been carried out then unless the owner volunteers this information instead, rather than being asked, its still upto the MOT tester to spot such annually I guess.
The question arises regarding imports I imagine, as I doubt most mot testers would know the difference between a standard 70s Chevy and a modified one unless its had an obvious Boyd Coddington/Chip Foose upgrade.
My understanding is this all came about as a result of Pur Sang replica Bugattis trying to claim MOT exemption status?
If a pre rolling exemption date car has simply been hotted up beyond 15% of standard then all it loses is the MOT exemption?
A hell of a lot of paperwork to originally capture probably a handful of replica Bugattis!
My guess is that owners of modified pre 1960s car will state a power increase and take on the chin the annual MOT just to get DVLA off their back and simply keep having their structurally modded car checked over every year by the same tester who has been doing it for years anyway!
Either that, or play dumb, sign the exemption declaration, thus avoiding a canny mot tester every year and carry on regardless, as who is going to catch them out anyway?
When was the last time you saw a police car doing a spot check on a classic going to a show on a sunny Sunday summers morning? all of my police mates don't know one end of a car from another either.
In the remotest chance a non declared car gets pulled, they simply lose UK road registration status, put it in a classic auction abroad and sell it on.
So that would either now (or in the future with the rolling exemption date) encompass the early Astons conversions, 250 GTE donors, E types etc but post the rolling 1960s cut off date if the same mods have been carried out then unless the owner volunteers this information instead, rather than being asked, its still upto the MOT tester to spot such annually I guess.
The question arises regarding imports I imagine, as I doubt most mot testers would know the difference between a standard 70s Chevy and a modified one unless its had an obvious Boyd Coddington/Chip Foose upgrade.
My understanding is this all came about as a result of Pur Sang replica Bugattis trying to claim MOT exemption status?
If a pre rolling exemption date car has simply been hotted up beyond 15% of standard then all it loses is the MOT exemption?
A hell of a lot of paperwork to originally capture probably a handful of replica Bugattis!
My guess is that owners of modified pre 1960s car will state a power increase and take on the chin the annual MOT just to get DVLA off their back and simply keep having their structurally modded car checked over every year by the same tester who has been doing it for years anyway!
Either that, or play dumb, sign the exemption declaration, thus avoiding a canny mot tester every year and carry on regardless, as who is going to catch them out anyway?
When was the last time you saw a police car doing a spot check on a classic going to a show on a sunny Sunday summers morning? all of my police mates don't know one end of a car from another either.
In the remotest chance a non declared car gets pulled, they simply lose UK road registration status, put it in a classic auction abroad and sell it on.
Edited by PAUL500 on Wednesday 4th October 09:56
As regards the proposals, there is one test case going on at the moment of a car which was radically altered over thirty years back, then exported to Spain. On re-importation the DVLA are now asking for Q-plates but the matter is being fought. Yesterday there was a meeting between the FBHVC and the DVLA to try and thrash things out. Surely an amnesty or grandfathering must be called for.
This problem goes far deeper than you think. Rolls and Bentley made chassis only and that is how they left the factory, the purchaser sending to his own specialist for the body. If these cars are returned to as they left the factory they will be a rolling chassis again. I suggest you look here at a current example going to auction:-
http://www.coys.co.uk/cars/2016-evanta-db4-gt-zaga...
Coys say they have no knowledge of the forthcoming rules changes. More anon.
This problem goes far deeper than you think. Rolls and Bentley made chassis only and that is how they left the factory, the purchaser sending to his own specialist for the body. If these cars are returned to as they left the factory they will be a rolling chassis again. I suggest you look here at a current example going to auction:-
http://www.coys.co.uk/cars/2016-evanta-db4-gt-zaga...
Coys say they have no knowledge of the forthcoming rules changes. More anon.
PAUL500 said:
Essentially then, any pre 1960 car is going to get caught out via the declaration form to the owner, and now end up on a q plate, all as a result of the qualification procedures for non mot status, if its been structurally modified.
Where on earth are you getting that from? What "declaration form"?The Q-plate standard is unchanged for decades, and totally unrelated to the MOT exemption. If somebody's been playing fast and loose with it previously, then they'll simply continue to do so.
PAUL500 said:
The question arises regarding imports I imagine, as I doubt most mot testers would know the difference between a standard 70s Chevy and a modified one unless its had an obvious Boyd Coddington/Chip Foose upgrade.
If the owner says it's not been modified, then the tester will never see it.PAUL500 said:
My understanding is this all came about as a result of Pur Sang replica Bugattis trying to claim MOT exemption status?
No, that's something else entirely from several years ago.PAUL500 said:
If a pre rolling exemption date car has simply been hotted up beyond 15% of standard then all it loses is the MOT exemption?
Yes.With the Rolls example though, if the chassis is intact as per original then body mods would not fall under the 8 point rule as its separate from the chassis anyway unlike a unibody?
The ones that spring to mind are Bentley racers whose chassis were lengthened/shortened post factory?
Also as I keep stating, road registered rally cars are structurally nothing like the base car they started from. I do still wonder how the likes of Malcolm Wilson etc get the cars UK road registered these days either, as they are nothing like the type approved base model they claim to be.
The ones that spring to mind are Bentley racers whose chassis were lengthened/shortened post factory?
Also as I keep stating, road registered rally cars are structurally nothing like the base car they started from. I do still wonder how the likes of Malcolm Wilson etc get the cars UK road registered these days either, as they are nothing like the type approved base model they claim to be.
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