ECU upgrade. Do it or leave it as it is?
Discussion
My car is coming off the road for its yearly winter hibernation after Christmas and apart from the usual chassis cleanup and retouch, it is also that time when while it is up on its axle stands, when I also 'improve' it with mods.
This year I thinking that the project could be to rip out the 14CUX and install a modern ECU / loom etc. Being out here, the usual drive in/out suspects are not an option, so I will have to DIY it. I have access to a rolling road for tuning and a great sparky if I get stuck and need a grown up so I am confident that I can do it. The last 2 winters I took the car to bits with a body lift (1st year), a/c, PAS (last year) so I feel up to it mechanically.
I have got the 14CUX running to the best of its abilities with a modded map on green tune and with all the electrical components in top nick, the car has never been smoother with hardly any shunting. But I can't help feeling that there is a better world out there, without the stepper that occasionally has a mind of its own and that the decades-old electrical and fuelling system can be made to work better
Megasquirt seems the obvious option, but to those who have changed their ECUs will it improve things further than that I have?
This year I thinking that the project could be to rip out the 14CUX and install a modern ECU / loom etc. Being out here, the usual drive in/out suspects are not an option, so I will have to DIY it. I have access to a rolling road for tuning and a great sparky if I get stuck and need a grown up so I am confident that I can do it. The last 2 winters I took the car to bits with a body lift (1st year), a/c, PAS (last year) so I feel up to it mechanically.
I have got the 14CUX running to the best of its abilities with a modded map on green tune and with all the electrical components in top nick, the car has never been smoother with hardly any shunting. But I can't help feeling that there is a better world out there, without the stepper that occasionally has a mind of its own and that the decades-old electrical and fuelling system can be made to work better
Megasquirt seems the obvious option, but to those who have changed their ECUs will it improve things further than that I have?
Despite owning mine for nearly 3 years, I never drove it with the original Lucas set up. It went straight for the upgrades so I cannot comment on how good or bad it was.
Reading these pages it seems the following engine components give the most problems:
1. Stepper motor
2. Airflow sensor
3. Distributor/coil/amplifier
With the MBE ECU, all of them are removed so I suppose that means a far more reliable engine.
Reading these pages it seems the following engine components give the most problems:
1. Stepper motor
2. Airflow sensor
3. Distributor/coil/amplifier
With the MBE ECU, all of them are removed so I suppose that means a far more reliable engine.
I wouldn't use megasquirt.
Speak to the person who is going to map the car and use the ecu they suggest.
My cossie was mapped by Mark Shead at MA Developments and he fitted a vipec to it with coil on plugs, it transformed the car. I am sure he could spec and map the TVR for you, he even does 1000bhp offshore power boats etc.
Speak to the person who is going to map the car and use the ecu they suggest.
My cossie was mapped by Mark Shead at MA Developments and he fitted a vipec to it with coil on plugs, it transformed the car. I am sure he could spec and map the TVR for you, he even does 1000bhp offshore power boats etc.
I had a Canems ECU fitted by Lloyds, without doubt the best money I have ever spent on my car. The car now drives without any shunting or hesitation and the low revs flexibility is outstanding.
Lloyds sell a DIY version of what I had fitted......... http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/fully...
As mentioned above I would run it by your dyno man first.
Lloyds sell a DIY version of what I had fitted......... http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/fully...
As mentioned above I would run it by your dyno man first.
Edited by Hedgehopper on Saturday 7th October 12:43
Edited by Hedgehopper on Saturday 7th October 12:46
I had a Chimaera 500 in 2000/2001 and it drove fine, no problems, but I believe that is more to do with the car being only 5 yrs old at the time although it had 60k miles on it.
I had a Chimaera 4.0 from 2003 - early this year and although I didn't have the horrendous shunting some experience, it was awful when cold for the first 5 mins. Until I had the injectors cleaned, if you stalled it when cold, it was a hell of a job to restart it. I had to re-check the base idle frequently because it always seemed to be on the point of stalling.
The Chimaera 4.0 I bought in August has canems fitted and in my opinion is excellent. Start it cold and immediately drive away, no spluttering or juddering.
A friend of mine had a Chimaera 500 for 2 years until May this year and he also had problems with it stalling, despite having a replacement Lucas ECU fitted.
If your car is running fine and you have no problems, I'd be inclined to leave it, but IMHO, the canems is a great upgrade. Cost the previous owner £2500 at Lloyds Developments but I believe that others have fitted it themselves. You will need a rolling road to set it up after fitting.
I had expected the car to be have improved mpg but I suspect it runs smoother because the ECU ensures good fuel supply to the engine. I'm getting 20 / 21 mpg, slightly worse than my previous car on Lucas 14 CUX.
Slightly beaten to it mentioning Lloyds! I have sent several emails to them with questions regarding the readings and adjusting settings. They have been very helpful, despite me not being the original customer.
I had a Chimaera 4.0 from 2003 - early this year and although I didn't have the horrendous shunting some experience, it was awful when cold for the first 5 mins. Until I had the injectors cleaned, if you stalled it when cold, it was a hell of a job to restart it. I had to re-check the base idle frequently because it always seemed to be on the point of stalling.
The Chimaera 4.0 I bought in August has canems fitted and in my opinion is excellent. Start it cold and immediately drive away, no spluttering or juddering.
A friend of mine had a Chimaera 500 for 2 years until May this year and he also had problems with it stalling, despite having a replacement Lucas ECU fitted.
If your car is running fine and you have no problems, I'd be inclined to leave it, but IMHO, the canems is a great upgrade. Cost the previous owner £2500 at Lloyds Developments but I believe that others have fitted it themselves. You will need a rolling road to set it up after fitting.
I had expected the car to be have improved mpg but I suspect it runs smoother because the ECU ensures good fuel supply to the engine. I'm getting 20 / 21 mpg, slightly worse than my previous car on Lucas 14 CUX.
Slightly beaten to it mentioning Lloyds! I have sent several emails to them with questions regarding the readings and adjusting settings. They have been very helpful, despite me not being the original customer.
Edited by ianwayne on Saturday 7th October 12:52
jazzdude said:
Megasquirt seems the obvious option, but to those who have changed their ECUs will it improve things further than that I have?
That question would be impossible to answer without driving your car and comparing it with one with an aftermarket ECU, and don't forget the spec, engine size, cam profile, flywheel weight, general condition of tune, ect ect ect on these cars vary greatly, this means finding a benchmark for drivability becomes completely impossible.A few basic points to consider before you spend your money on an aftermarket engine management system...
- When these cars were supplied from new, buyers wouldn't have thrown £30k on the table if they drove badly, this should tell you the 14CUX and distributor system (while outdated now) will work well if it's in fine fettle, lets be honest the 14CUX is essentially the excellent Bosch 'L' Jetronic system build under license by Lucas
- All TVRs seem to drive a little differently, even two completely standard and correctly set up and tuned four litre cars driven back to back will often give slightly different driving characteristics
- Most of these cars are 20 years old now, the combination of TVR's forward running exhaust manifolds, the exhaust gas flow restricting catalytic converters and the 10-12 degrees of timing (the later two adopted as emissions strategies) all conspire to create a lot of under-bonnet heat which is hard on engine ancillaries and is especially hard on the engine bay loom which along with the AFM becoming heat soaked can be one of the biggest causes of running issues
- In addition to point 3 a considerable percentage of engine drivability issues can be attributed to the ignition system and actually have nothing to do with the much maligned 14CUX fueling system. In particular HT leads have a very hard life, TVR designed forward running exhaust manifolds adopted only because the chassis rails don't allow the manifolds to run down the block in the traditional way. The knock on effect of the TVR manifolds is they create a lot of heat around the plug end of the HT lead, TVR used Vauxhall plug extenders to help with this problem but these extenders are themselves a common source of ignition issues, the failure prone extenders combined with inappropriate shrouded electrode and too cold number 7 plugs makes for a very unreliable combination that does not promote reliable and efficient combustion and so will contribute to misfires that are often felt as what is referred to on these pages as shunting.
1. Give the car a full ignition service
2. Replace the highly inappropriate NGKB7ECS chosen by TVR with BPR6ES or better still BPR6EIX iridium plugs
3. Replace your HT leads with a decent set, avoid Magnecors and use MSD Superconductors
4. Ditch the dreadful and failure prone plug extenders and sleeve the plug end with Pr-Boot Guard, over this use DEI Titanium Protect-a-Boots
5. Remove all catalytic converters and find a sensible MoT tester who will help you through the emissions test
6. Remove the distributor vacuum advance pipe, set your timming to 10-12 degrees at idle, once set relocate your vac advance hose to manifold vacuum, recheck timing at idle which should now be 18-20 degress which (with the removal of the cats) will give a massive reduction in under bonnet temps
7. Remove all vacuum leaks, pay special attention to the crankcase ventilation hoses that go baggy over time and allow excessive air to be drawn in by the engine, Land Rover used a passive crankcase ventilation which was un-valved so can introduce odd behaviors especially on snap throttle closures where plenum vacuum shoots up rapidly and the engine inhales a huge gulp of air through the hose connected to throttle body connection. With no PCV valving a momentary lean misfire is the inevitable consequence, closely followed by a big dollop of fuel induced rich misfire as the 14CUX system does it's best to compensate, a cycle of lean/rich misfires ensues and has you kanarooing up the road
8. Follow the correct procedure to set your base idle
9. Check all under-bonnet wiring renewing and repairing where required, areas especially vulnerable are where wires enter connectors, the AFM connector being just one case in point
10. Clean your air filter, simple, seemingly obvious... but often overlooked due to poor access and general owner laziness
11. Lag the vulnerable to heat soak air flow meter, the hot wire AFM has some delicate electronics inside it that were never designed to be cooked by TVR's forward running exhaust manifolds, it's job is to measure the true mass of air entering the engine, air density alters with temperature so lagging the AFM is always a good idea for these two reasons. The ECU can only work with the information it's receiving from the various sensors positioned around the engine, you really shouldn't blame the 14CUX ECU (computer) if it's being forced to work with the wrong data
12. Clean the stepper motor, the age old cure all for all drivability issues with these cars is the last thing I'd do as while it can help it's seldom the true source of idle and drivability issues
13. Make sure your TVR designed speed sensor box is working correctly, the ECU needs to know the car is moving (above or below aprox 5mph), the ECU will send instructions to the stepper motor based on this information so the correct function of the speed signal box critical to ensure good drivability. The TVR speed signal box is not the best example of electronic engineering so can often send the wrong messages to the ECU or no message at all. Try disconnecting the stepper motor with the ignition off, clamp it's air feed hose and go for a drive to see if there's an improvement in any undesirable drivability issues. Remember the much maligned stepper motor is just a dumb air bleed valve, it's actually quite reliable, the smart approach is to study what's telling the dumb stepper motor what to do rather than blindly replacing the stepper motor itself
14. Check your engine earths at the cylinder head, good earths are essential for correct sensor and ECU operation
When you've done all that you'll probably find your TVR drives as smooth as you like and you don't need to shell out on an aftermarket engine management system. With the right spark plugs, fresh quality leads, some HT lead heat protection and a few other bits and bobs you'll may end up spending £200 or so on parts but it'll be money well spent. Buy a decent multimeter and a quality advance strobe if you don't already have them, then invest a full weekend systematically going through the car following the above list... and you'll definitely notice a big difference.
Saying that there's very little to beat the advantage of being able to easily 3D map your fueling and ignition, in my experience the two things running an after market engine management system teaches you are:
1. Any Rover V8 with the inlet manifold we're burdened with does not really like the 14.7:1 AFR the 14CUX constantly tries to hit, below 2,000rpm this engine most definitely does not like anything leaner than 13.5:1 and the more valve overlap your cam profile gives the worse the situation gets
2. Moving away from the fixed advance curve of the distributor to a 3D mappable ignition system gives even greater benefits still, running more timing at low rpms especially under load (pulling away, reverse parking ect) makes a massive difference to general drivability of these cars. But switching from ported vacuum to full manifold vacuum on your current distributor ignition system should go a long way towards enjoying the advantage of more timing at low rpms, and of course this simple change costs absolutely noting to implement
If you can implement both a bit more fuel under 2,000rpm and as much as 8-10 degrees more timing at idle and just off idle under initial engine load at low RPM you will feel a massive improvement to drivability for sure, and the more aggressive your cam choice the bigger the improvements will be. Finally whatever you do you'll always be fighting against the poor inlet manifold design, the engineers at Land Rover identified this as a key issue a long time ago which is why they spent a considerable chunk of their Rage Rover/Discovery development budget designing the Thor inlet system, even though they knew the old Rover V8 had already had its days due to ever stricter emissions regulations being imposed on the automotive industry at the time.
I hope all this helps, at the very least following some of the above tuning tips should save you a lot of money and give you 90% of the benefits of fitting an expensive after market engine management system, saying that personally I'd never want to lose the huge advantages in drivability, throttle response and fuel economy offered by my excellent Canems Dual Fuel engine management system.
Dave.
Wow, Dave.. great post.
Being a 400 HC, one of the models that along with the 500 are shunt prone due to that 'High Lift' cam, especially as mine now has over 115k miles on it (cam replaced btw), getting the ignition system and the engine wiring sorted was one of the first priorities that I had when I first bought the car a couple of years ago.
Most of the stuff you listed I have already done. In particular, 1-5 were the first that I did, replaced everything, went to 6s on the sparks (not the iridium though) with standard HT leads and socks, and also have done 8,9 & 10. I haven't looked into doing 6 & 7, so that could go on the list for the winter and I suppose it should not be too difficult to lag the AFM. As the car drops the idle speed at the right spot when I come to a halt I can only assume that the speed sensor is also working correctly so do not know of a more specific test to see if it is working within its design parameters.
The car also has the ACT silicone hoses everywhere and K&N filter, carbon inlet trumpets and I completely rewired the engine bay earths, put an Oddysey battery in the boot with some nice new fat wiring, ditched the immobiliser (fitted a straightforward modern system that just shuts off the starter solenoid and doesn't reset itself if you scratch your nose before starting the car).
The stepper motor is the weak link in my opinion though as, for some reason, I have to clean it practically every few weeks to keep the idle working properly. If I do any work on the car and shut off the battery with the Battery Brain, it takes forever to relearn the base point and I have fast idling again for a few days before it settles down again. Not sure if a new stepper motor will cure this as 1. I know there are plenty of dodgy ones out there, and 2, when it does settle down it works OK for a few weeks.
After the above, by far the biggest improvement to the driveability was burning a new EPROM with the TVR fettled 14 CUX Firmware on it and running the car using the green resistor, without the cats and without the lambda sensors. The difference was huge and that modification, along with manually adjusting the CO trim to 1.42V (13.5 AFR) alone was the main factor in getting smooth road manners with practically shunt free driving.
I don't foresee myself going FI on this car as the engine has covered a lot of miles and I already know that a Powers type rebuild would be money better spent, so the upgraded ECU will not need to be there 'in case' I go the FI route.
So, on this engine, spending another 1k on it from what I understand should be what a (DIY) MS system would set me back (after selling all the 14CUX stuff), or 2k looking at Lloyds DIY kit (thanks for the link) - the question is how much will the car improve from where it is now?
Being a 400 HC, one of the models that along with the 500 are shunt prone due to that 'High Lift' cam, especially as mine now has over 115k miles on it (cam replaced btw), getting the ignition system and the engine wiring sorted was one of the first priorities that I had when I first bought the car a couple of years ago.
Most of the stuff you listed I have already done. In particular, 1-5 were the first that I did, replaced everything, went to 6s on the sparks (not the iridium though) with standard HT leads and socks, and also have done 8,9 & 10. I haven't looked into doing 6 & 7, so that could go on the list for the winter and I suppose it should not be too difficult to lag the AFM. As the car drops the idle speed at the right spot when I come to a halt I can only assume that the speed sensor is also working correctly so do not know of a more specific test to see if it is working within its design parameters.
The car also has the ACT silicone hoses everywhere and K&N filter, carbon inlet trumpets and I completely rewired the engine bay earths, put an Oddysey battery in the boot with some nice new fat wiring, ditched the immobiliser (fitted a straightforward modern system that just shuts off the starter solenoid and doesn't reset itself if you scratch your nose before starting the car).
The stepper motor is the weak link in my opinion though as, for some reason, I have to clean it practically every few weeks to keep the idle working properly. If I do any work on the car and shut off the battery with the Battery Brain, it takes forever to relearn the base point and I have fast idling again for a few days before it settles down again. Not sure if a new stepper motor will cure this as 1. I know there are plenty of dodgy ones out there, and 2, when it does settle down it works OK for a few weeks.
After the above, by far the biggest improvement to the driveability was burning a new EPROM with the TVR fettled 14 CUX Firmware on it and running the car using the green resistor, without the cats and without the lambda sensors. The difference was huge and that modification, along with manually adjusting the CO trim to 1.42V (13.5 AFR) alone was the main factor in getting smooth road manners with practically shunt free driving.
I don't foresee myself going FI on this car as the engine has covered a lot of miles and I already know that a Powers type rebuild would be money better spent, so the upgraded ECU will not need to be there 'in case' I go the FI route.
So, on this engine, spending another 1k on it from what I understand should be what a (DIY) MS system would set me back (after selling all the 14CUX stuff), or 2k looking at Lloyds DIY kit (thanks for the link) - the question is how much will the car improve from where it is now?
Edited by jazzdude on Saturday 7th October 13:40
The Megasquirt system looks very good value to me but seems to get mixed reviews online im not sure why. V8 developments sell them so they cant be that bad is my thinking.
As said its probably better to fit something that you can get mapped locally, makes it a lot easier. Ive thought about changing too but my motto is that if it isnt broke then dont fix it, my car runs well on it.
I suppose if you have the spare cash then it will be an interesting project and bringing the car into the 21st century would be a bonus.
As said its probably better to fit something that you can get mapped locally, makes it a lot easier. Ive thought about changing too but my motto is that if it isnt broke then dont fix it, my car runs well on it.
I suppose if you have the spare cash then it will be an interesting project and bringing the car into the 21st century would be a bonus.
I converted my Lotus Elan Plus 2 to EFI a couple of years ago and used the Megasquirt MS2 v3.0 ECU which I built from a kit.
Following this experience, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Megasquirt approach and will now install this on my 500.
Building the Megasquirt is straightforward and teaches you so much about the control of EFI. It is also highly modifiable to allow for most configurations of fuelling and ignition.
When it comes to tuning, and assuming you've fitted a wideband O2 sensor and controller, the 'Tuner Studio' software incorporates an excellent 'autotune' facility both for warm up and running. Once you have set up an appropriate AFR table (this can also be generated for your engine specifics by the software) 'autotune' uses the O2 sensor to match the fueling table to the AFR table. So you just go out and drive under as many conditions as possible and 'autotune' produces a duplicate table showing the suggested changes, weighted by colour as an indication of how many hits it's had at that particular load point, and you can accept any or all of the changes accordingly. Once a pretty good tune is achieved, you can set 'autotune' to continue directly refining the fueling table as you enjoy driving!
Once I was satisfied with the tune for the Lotus, I did visit a rolling road. No improvement could be made on the 'autotune' tune! Ignition tuning however does require a rolling road since a series of steady state loads are required to compare torque figures against advance settings but this is a pretty quick process compared to tuning fuel. IMHO tuning 'on the road' is by far preferable, and more fun and informative, to a fairly restricted and artificial rolling road session. I do however realise that the upper power regions of the TVR cannot be safely tuned on the road unlike the Lotus's more modest output! It is also easy to 'autotune' coldstarts and warm up - you just start it up under as many conditions as you find and 'autotune' does the rest!
On the ignition front, MS2 will, with some mods, directly fire dumb coilpacks or control logic coil packs for 8 cyl wasted spark without the need for EDIS or such like and uses much the same load sensors as does the fueling.
So the install I have in mind:
1) 36-1 crank trigger and VR sensor.
2) Ditch the restrictive AFM and replace with a tube incorporating a boss for the air temperature sensor.
3)Ditch the stepper motor and use its tapping for the MAP sensor.
4) Install a Bosch PWM idle control valve into the IAC pipe.
5) Use the existing coolant temp sensor, ditch the fuel temp sensor.
6) Ditch the distributor and fit 2 wasted spark coilpacks.
7) Ditch the remaining pre-cats and lamda sensors, install a wideband O2 sensor and controller.
8) Use a 14CUX type socket wired to the Megasquirt in a custom enclosure to directly plug into the existing loom using redundant wiring for coilpacks etc. I could wire a new loom but as a wire is just a wire I think I'll use what's there!
The benefits of the change to the Lotus were magnified since it was a change from carburettors. Startability, smooth running, flatter torque curve, tractability and much improved economy resulted.
Because the TVR is already EFI, I don't expect the difference to be as startling, however, I do expect benefits from improved airflow without the AFM, better fuel control and proper ignition control. An improvement in economy would be nice but that may be more in the control of my right foot than anything else
.
Dougal.
Following this experience, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Megasquirt approach and will now install this on my 500.
Building the Megasquirt is straightforward and teaches you so much about the control of EFI. It is also highly modifiable to allow for most configurations of fuelling and ignition.
When it comes to tuning, and assuming you've fitted a wideband O2 sensor and controller, the 'Tuner Studio' software incorporates an excellent 'autotune' facility both for warm up and running. Once you have set up an appropriate AFR table (this can also be generated for your engine specifics by the software) 'autotune' uses the O2 sensor to match the fueling table to the AFR table. So you just go out and drive under as many conditions as possible and 'autotune' produces a duplicate table showing the suggested changes, weighted by colour as an indication of how many hits it's had at that particular load point, and you can accept any or all of the changes accordingly. Once a pretty good tune is achieved, you can set 'autotune' to continue directly refining the fueling table as you enjoy driving!
Once I was satisfied with the tune for the Lotus, I did visit a rolling road. No improvement could be made on the 'autotune' tune! Ignition tuning however does require a rolling road since a series of steady state loads are required to compare torque figures against advance settings but this is a pretty quick process compared to tuning fuel. IMHO tuning 'on the road' is by far preferable, and more fun and informative, to a fairly restricted and artificial rolling road session. I do however realise that the upper power regions of the TVR cannot be safely tuned on the road unlike the Lotus's more modest output! It is also easy to 'autotune' coldstarts and warm up - you just start it up under as many conditions as you find and 'autotune' does the rest!
On the ignition front, MS2 will, with some mods, directly fire dumb coilpacks or control logic coil packs for 8 cyl wasted spark without the need for EDIS or such like and uses much the same load sensors as does the fueling.
So the install I have in mind:
1) 36-1 crank trigger and VR sensor.
2) Ditch the restrictive AFM and replace with a tube incorporating a boss for the air temperature sensor.
3)Ditch the stepper motor and use its tapping for the MAP sensor.
4) Install a Bosch PWM idle control valve into the IAC pipe.
5) Use the existing coolant temp sensor, ditch the fuel temp sensor.
6) Ditch the distributor and fit 2 wasted spark coilpacks.
7) Ditch the remaining pre-cats and lamda sensors, install a wideband O2 sensor and controller.
8) Use a 14CUX type socket wired to the Megasquirt in a custom enclosure to directly plug into the existing loom using redundant wiring for coilpacks etc. I could wire a new loom but as a wire is just a wire I think I'll use what's there!
The benefits of the change to the Lotus were magnified since it was a change from carburettors. Startability, smooth running, flatter torque curve, tractability and much improved economy resulted.
Because the TVR is already EFI, I don't expect the difference to be as startling, however, I do expect benefits from improved airflow without the AFM, better fuel control and proper ignition control. An improvement in economy would be nice but that may be more in the control of my right foot than anything else
.Dougal.
jazzdude said:
Now spending another 1k on it from what I understand should be what a (DIY) MS system would set me back (after selling all the 14CUX stuff), or 2k looking at Lloyds DIY kit (thanks for the link) - the question is how much will the car improve from where it is now?
As I said, your question is impossible to answer without driving your car and comparing it back to back with my Canems equipped 4.0HC.I'm running an 18lb flywheel and a V8D Stealth cam by the way, running more advance at idle especially just off idle under load at the moment I pull away and the 13.5:1 AFR I run are the two biggest improvements I've implemented.
If you've already got a 14CUX chip that gives you 13.5:1 or richer below 2,000rpm I'd be tempted to experiment with applying full manifold vacuum to your vac advance module on the side of your distributor, this is how it was done back in the 1960's, manufacturers only went to ported vacuum as with our cars because less timing at idle is better for emissions, it most certainly isn't the idle timing this engine wants.
All the other things you've done are good practice, beyond this it's my opinion the inlet manifold manifold design is the element that holds you back more than the 14CUX system. It's well documented I run the Canems system, with the right ignition timing burning LPG actually aids drivability too as it burns in a slower more consistent way, being a gas it also mixes more readily with air than a liquid fuel like petrol which means at low air speeds you tend to enjoy a more stable idle and off idle characteristics.
Richer mixtures, more timing and even burning LPG all help, but I believe what they are really helping do is mask the very poor inlet manifold/plenum design. People having gone forced induction often report of super smooth drivability and I can see why. Firstly and especially in the case of a supercharger you're adding a slug more torque low down, secondly with forced induction you're keeping the plenum under pressure which means the air can only go one way.
Of courser a compressor is a very expensive and rather extreme way to solve some undesirable engine drivability issues, if this was a traditional Chevy or Ford V8 we'd be able to pick and choose from an endless range of inlet manifold designs at reasonable cost, sadly thats just not the case with our Rover V8. So given I believe I've got 'Ol Gasbag' driving as good as it'll get (and it drives great BTW), if I want to take the car to the next level of smoothness without spending a kings ransom I've got to look at what the Land Rover engineers did with this engine to improve the way it breaths just a few years before the old Rover V8 engine was finally dropped.
This is why I've just invested in this little lot.....
There are some challenges ahead, but I've got the help of a skilled toolmaker to assist with solving the inlet bonnet clearance issues, and a guy who has done this conversion countless times on Range Rovers and has already developed a kit of parts to make it possible.
There are no grantees this project will work out as I want, but all the evidence suggests the Thor inlet manifold eliminates the cylinder robbing issues of the earlier plenum design, and everyone in the know agrees the Thor delivers a significant increase in torque from idle to 3,000 rpm and especially in the difficult 1,500 - 2,000rpm window where the current setup tends to burp back and cylinder rob. People in the know also say the Thor manifold starts to become a restriction above 280hp but as 'Ol Gasbag' sits safely below this output threshold this point is of little concern to me, there's also a suggestion the Thor manifold setup won't breath well at higher rpms but as this is essentially a low revving engine I'd not really worried about that either.
Next time you're out in your car I'd encourage everyone to study how you actually drive it on the road, you'll probably find like me the truth is you spend most of your time between idle and 3,000rpm. If you then refine this analysis further you'll likely find you spend 98% of your time between 1,500 & 2,500rpm, more over the point the car natural wants to drive in urban areas is around 1,800rpm which annoyingly is right where the engine tends to shunt.
If, as the evidence suggests, the Thor manifold delivers smoother engine breathing characteristics and superior drivability in the rpm window I typically spend most of my time driving in, then I believe it will prove to be a fantastic addition to 'Ol Gasbag'. Given my car is making pretty standard 4.0 litre levels of power I have my doubts it'll strangle the top end, 'Ol Gasbag' and all TVRs for that matter mostly get down the road so well because the cars are so light, you don't need to rev the nuts of them to make rapid progress and the engine power delivery characteristics are such that revving old Rover is completely pointless anyway.
For all these reasons I've decided it's worth trying a Thor inlet on 'Ol Gasbag', and as it's a cheap and completely reversible experiment the way I see it there's very little to lose in trying it.
Watch this space
I fitted an Emerald to mine along with a new loom. It was DIY and cost me about 1k.
Did i notice a difference, yes most definately. So much smoother lower down and a quite noticeable difference also in the upper rev range, it revved up so much better. Cant say how much power was gained as i didnt RR before hand but there was a noticeable gain.
At the time of doing mine the 14cux could only be mapped by Mr. Adams, so this was a factor in me converting.
More than anything though i suppose I just fancied the project. It brought the car up to modern day, running coil packs etc and got rid of all the troublesome parts as mentioned above. The rats nest above the battery is also gone. I also like to be able to do things myself on the car and going aftermarket means i can map, tweak it myself.
So, would you notice any difference, I think you will. By how much depends on how yours is currently running but even if running well i suspect you will notice a difference just by getting that spark and fuelling bob on.
I dont think theres much to choose between the usual ecu`s usually used on here. The latest MS is a very capable ecu, it just looks a little complex to me when i`ve looked at them but maybe its because i`m not used to it. The Emerald on the other hand and from what i can see the canems is extremely user friendly.
Decisions decisions
Did i notice a difference, yes most definately. So much smoother lower down and a quite noticeable difference also in the upper rev range, it revved up so much better. Cant say how much power was gained as i didnt RR before hand but there was a noticeable gain.
At the time of doing mine the 14cux could only be mapped by Mr. Adams, so this was a factor in me converting.
More than anything though i suppose I just fancied the project. It brought the car up to modern day, running coil packs etc and got rid of all the troublesome parts as mentioned above. The rats nest above the battery is also gone. I also like to be able to do things myself on the car and going aftermarket means i can map, tweak it myself.
So, would you notice any difference, I think you will. By how much depends on how yours is currently running but even if running well i suspect you will notice a difference just by getting that spark and fuelling bob on.
I dont think theres much to choose between the usual ecu`s usually used on here. The latest MS is a very capable ecu, it just looks a little complex to me when i`ve looked at them but maybe its because i`m not used to it. The Emerald on the other hand and from what i can see the canems is extremely user friendly.
Decisions decisions
The benefits outlined in the above post by Dougal are exactly what I enjoy.
Better fuel return, better manners, more linger power curve and a throttle that’s bike like in exacting fuelling into the engine, my view is simple, if you loose the rear on my car your dull minded with your right foot as it’s so precise I can regulate the power exactly as I require, finding the point of balance between accelerating and not is very easy, I noticed in the rain how the CUX rear wheels would keep spinning for awhile even though I’d come off throttle as in fuel still going through, now it’s instantly off and allows better throttle control balance of the car.
From a performance point of view mines better in every way and removal of the air restriction as in the AFM gives it much better flow into the engine and increases the power in itself.
Mine does away with stepper motor and just uses timing and added fuel based on temp and air sensor readings to help maintain a steady idle, its also true to say that in cold weather as it has no raised idle the driver does need to hold revs at say 1200 revs for around 20-30 seconds before it will idle comfortably and for some owners that’s not good enough but for me little trouble and I’m much happier it’s me that controls the idle rather than the system.
Regardless of the weather my habit is always to start an engine and run it at around 1000 revs then slowly increase this to 1400 revs if it’s from cold. Splash doesn’t really happen until around 1000 revs so I want it running and at a range that can get oil around the cam lobes.
Not artificially adding to much fuel seems a real fuel return benefit, cold starts are where I save the most fuel.
The only problem with after market Ecu is who can maintain it when things go wrong and your often tied into using only a few specialists who have the skills.
I’m at the point where I feel I have to educate myself in mapping and the related software so as to maintain my car and it’s map as if I was to move further from the original mapper the costs would start to outway the benefit if I needed regular mapping tweaks.
I can confirm that the Mbe I had installed almost exactly two years ago and over 10,000 miles ago has been totally faultless and required no re mapping to date.
Idle screw wound out by its own once and caused low idle and was soon found and other than that it’s been running almost daily for long periods, then weeks left alone and it’s doing a fantastic job of starting and running beautifully every time.
Saying that 6 rated plugs have added a lot to the mix.
Overall it’s a great addition to the car and gives me a very different level of confidence in using it.
The car feels more in tune with itself and your right foot is right at the heart of it if it’s done properly. Brilliant stuff.
Better fuel return, better manners, more linger power curve and a throttle that’s bike like in exacting fuelling into the engine, my view is simple, if you loose the rear on my car your dull minded with your right foot as it’s so precise I can regulate the power exactly as I require, finding the point of balance between accelerating and not is very easy, I noticed in the rain how the CUX rear wheels would keep spinning for awhile even though I’d come off throttle as in fuel still going through, now it’s instantly off and allows better throttle control balance of the car.
From a performance point of view mines better in every way and removal of the air restriction as in the AFM gives it much better flow into the engine and increases the power in itself.
Mine does away with stepper motor and just uses timing and added fuel based on temp and air sensor readings to help maintain a steady idle, its also true to say that in cold weather as it has no raised idle the driver does need to hold revs at say 1200 revs for around 20-30 seconds before it will idle comfortably and for some owners that’s not good enough but for me little trouble and I’m much happier it’s me that controls the idle rather than the system.
Regardless of the weather my habit is always to start an engine and run it at around 1000 revs then slowly increase this to 1400 revs if it’s from cold. Splash doesn’t really happen until around 1000 revs so I want it running and at a range that can get oil around the cam lobes.
Not artificially adding to much fuel seems a real fuel return benefit, cold starts are where I save the most fuel.
The only problem with after market Ecu is who can maintain it when things go wrong and your often tied into using only a few specialists who have the skills.
I’m at the point where I feel I have to educate myself in mapping and the related software so as to maintain my car and it’s map as if I was to move further from the original mapper the costs would start to outway the benefit if I needed regular mapping tweaks.
I can confirm that the Mbe I had installed almost exactly two years ago and over 10,000 miles ago has been totally faultless and required no re mapping to date.
Idle screw wound out by its own once and caused low idle and was soon found and other than that it’s been running almost daily for long periods, then weeks left alone and it’s doing a fantastic job of starting and running beautifully every time.
Saying that 6 rated plugs have added a lot to the mix.
Overall it’s a great addition to the car and gives me a very different level of confidence in using it.
The car feels more in tune with itself and your right foot is right at the heart of it if it’s done properly. Brilliant stuff.
motul1974 said:
How About a GEMS?
Anyone handy with a spanner can fit it themselves.... or at least I'm led to believe. My Mark Adams's ECU is still sitting in the garage waiting for the rest of the required bits and is part of my planned winter refurb.
...just an alternative!
As far as I know, GEMS can only be fitted to cross bolted engines such as the one on 450s.Anyone handy with a spanner can fit it themselves.... or at least I'm led to believe. My Mark Adams's ECU is still sitting in the garage waiting for the rest of the required bits and is part of my planned winter refurb.
...just an alternative!
Something to do with the knock sensors
Knowing you are Cyprus-based, I would say only change ECU if you have a skilled mapper locally, with rolling road, and go with his choice of ECU.
I went with Emerald because I live 40 miles from an acknowledged expert.
All aftermarket ECUs will theoretically improve things because they control spark better/at all. For all the criticisms I thought the 14CUX made a reasonable job of running my engine. But the same mapper as I have gone to for the Emerald was able to map the 14CUX too.
I went with Emerald because I live 40 miles from an acknowledged expert.
All aftermarket ECUs will theoretically improve things because they control spark better/at all. For all the criticisms I thought the 14CUX made a reasonable job of running my engine. But the same mapper as I have gone to for the Emerald was able to map the 14CUX too.
motul1974 said:
How About a GEMS?
Anyone handy with a spanner can fit it themselves.... or at least I'm led to believe. My Mark Adams's ECU is still sitting in the garage waiting for the rest of the required bits and is part of my planned winter refurb.
...just an alternative!
Unfortunately not compatible with most of the 4lt cars but will fit 4.5s and later 5lt cars.Anyone handy with a spanner can fit it themselves.... or at least I'm led to believe. My Mark Adams's ECU is still sitting in the garage waiting for the rest of the required bits and is part of my planned winter refurb.
...just an alternative!
Well its my birthday soon & then Xmas. So i have added to my list to put up the chimney for Santa regarding the above ignition parts.
She gave me one of those looks which said buy them yourself.
Followed by you have not even moved the fuse box malarky thingy me bob, sorted the windows or the mirrors or the other jobs you need to do over winter.
So i will have to buy the bits myself.
Keep up the good work with the posts beats the hell out of watching stricktley sickley as she is doing now.
She gave me one of those looks which said buy them yourself.
Followed by you have not even moved the fuse box malarky thingy me bob, sorted the windows or the mirrors or the other jobs you need to do over winter.
So i will have to buy the bits myself.
Keep up the good work with the posts beats the hell out of watching stricktley sickley as she is doing now.
jazzdude said:
motul1974 said:
How About a GEMS?
Anyone handy with a spanner can fit it themselves.... or at least I'm led to believe. My Mark Adams's ECU is still sitting in the garage waiting for the rest of the required bits and is part of my planned winter refurb.
...just an alternative!
As far as I know, GEMS can only be fitted to cross bolted engines such as the one on 450s.Anyone handy with a spanner can fit it themselves.... or at least I'm led to believe. My Mark Adams's ECU is still sitting in the garage waiting for the rest of the required bits and is part of my planned winter refurb.
...just an alternative!
Something to do with the knock sensors
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