New clutch time??
Discussion
So got the Cerbera back on the road today after various jobs over the last week or so and I've noticed a problem again today....just to add I was aware of this before I started any work and is unrelated.
Since I bought her I've driven mostly like granny as I wanted to change fluids first etc. I did have a couple of short but not full on blasts and seemed ok. But just before I put her on axels I was pulling away from a roundabout with a bit more intensity and she started revving high after a few yards like the clutch slipped, dropped off the accelerator and chaned gear and carried on fine. It happened again today this time in second when I gave a bit more revs. General driving ok and gear change ok( maybe a bit sticky fourth to third). Clutch fluid level is spot on and not seeing any leaks.
Now I'm not sure how the cerbera clutch generally feels, It's not quick to bite and it's a bit laboured to me. I'm probably answering my own question here and it needs a new clutch but thought I'd ask you good people who are far better informed than I on the Cerbera.
Just to add it seems to happen on gear change as clutch goes to re-engage.
Thanks.
Since I bought her I've driven mostly like granny as I wanted to change fluids first etc. I did have a couple of short but not full on blasts and seemed ok. But just before I put her on axels I was pulling away from a roundabout with a bit more intensity and she started revving high after a few yards like the clutch slipped, dropped off the accelerator and chaned gear and carried on fine. It happened again today this time in second when I gave a bit more revs. General driving ok and gear change ok( maybe a bit sticky fourth to third). Clutch fluid level is spot on and not seeing any leaks.
Now I'm not sure how the cerbera clutch generally feels, It's not quick to bite and it's a bit laboured to me. I'm probably answering my own question here and it needs a new clutch but thought I'd ask you good people who are far better informed than I on the Cerbera.
Just to add it seems to happen on gear change as clutch goes to re-engage.
Thanks.
Edited by PhilH42 on Wednesday 18th October 19:29
Did you change the clutch fluid when you did the fluids change?
May be worth doing so or bleeding it well.
My normal way of seeing is a clutch is worn to the point of slipping is to drive in quite a high gear, say third then left foot brake while trying to accelerate, you should be able to slow the car ans stall it before the clutch slips.
If it does slip is it caused by wear or by something in the fluid expanding with heat like air or water?
May be worth doing so or bleeding it well.
My normal way of seeing is a clutch is worn to the point of slipping is to drive in quite a high gear, say third then left foot brake while trying to accelerate, you should be able to slow the car ans stall it before the clutch slips.
If it does slip is it caused by wear or by something in the fluid expanding with heat like air or water?
gruffalo said:
Did you change the clutch fluid when you did the fluids change?
May be worth doing so or bleeding it well.
My normal way of seeing is a clutch is worn to the point of slipping is to drive in quite a high gear, say third then left foot brake while trying to accelerate, you should be able to slow the car ans stall it before the clutch slips.
If it does slip is it caused by wear or by something in the fluid expanding with heat like air or water?
Thanks and no I've not touched the clutch fluid at all as it looked ok and was on the mark and not changed the diff oil either yet. I've only done engine,gearbox,coolant and PAS fluids so far.May be worth doing so or bleeding it well.
My normal way of seeing is a clutch is worn to the point of slipping is to drive in quite a high gear, say third then left foot brake while trying to accelerate, you should be able to slow the car ans stall it before the clutch slips.
If it does slip is it caused by wear or by something in the fluid expanding with heat like air or water?
Theres no juddering or difficulty changing gear and generally seems ok, maybe I shouldn't write it off just yet and dig a bit deeper then. There is also a bit of noise (more whistle than whine) on acceleration and more like a vibration on deceleration which may well be related but I can't tell if the vibration is exhaust reverberation or something prop, diff or driveshaft related?
Can't rule out gearbox or bearing on the noise front but it doesn't explain the rest.
Edited by PhilH42 on Wednesday 18th October 23:49
Edited by PhilH42 on Wednesday 18th October 23:50
My test is to drive in too high a gear, say 30mph in 4th, dip the clutch whilst maintaining throttle position, revs will of course rise, then side step off the clutch and see how quickly the car and the engine sync their speeds. With a sound clutch, the car will snap back to speed and the revs will drop back to where they were. If the clutch is weak, you will see (on the tacho) that the engine continues to run faster for a wee while and there will be no lurch. With a really worn clutch, you can actually modulate the throttle at this point with little effect on road speed.
- (Only recommended for professional stunt drivers on closed roads
)
Might be worth checking you are not getting a build up of pressure in the system.
When it happens again, pull over and see what happens if you open the clutch bleed valve (have a rag handy) and see if fuid shoots out. I had a slipping clutch due to the valve (just a bit of rubber) in the end of the master cylinder failing and not letting the fluid back into the reservoir quickly enough.
When it happens again, pull over and see what happens if you open the clutch bleed valve (have a rag handy) and see if fuid shoots out. I had a slipping clutch due to the valve (just a bit of rubber) in the end of the master cylinder failing and not letting the fluid back into the reservoir quickly enough.
With the Cerb the time taken for the clutch to stop slipping does not seem to be a reliable way to determine clutch wear.
The best way to check is to use a high gear and accelerate going up hill to see if the clutch starts slipping.
If the slave seals are too tight this can easily mimic a worn clutch by making the clutch slip when changing gear.
Either way the hassle of fixing the problem is significant, and once the gearbox is removed there will be an argument that the clutch plates should be renewed anyway, unless they are very fresh.
Similarly the £6 pilot bearing should be changed whenever you remove the gearbox, and the input shaft play should be checked and the retainer re-shimmed if necessary. The problem is that you can't get the shims in the UK, you need to order them as a kit from the US; best to do so in advance, I bought mine from americanpowertrainwarehouse.com part code T5-SMK.
Failure to do so can be very very costly - as I found out.
The best way to check is to use a high gear and accelerate going up hill to see if the clutch starts slipping.
If the slave seals are too tight this can easily mimic a worn clutch by making the clutch slip when changing gear.
Either way the hassle of fixing the problem is significant, and once the gearbox is removed there will be an argument that the clutch plates should be renewed anyway, unless they are very fresh.
Similarly the £6 pilot bearing should be changed whenever you remove the gearbox, and the input shaft play should be checked and the retainer re-shimmed if necessary. The problem is that you can't get the shims in the UK, you need to order them as a kit from the US; best to do so in advance, I bought mine from americanpowertrainwarehouse.com part code T5-SMK.
Failure to do so can be very very costly - as I found out.
ukkid35 said:
With the Cerb the time taken for the clutch to stop slipping does not seem to be a reliable way to determine clutch wear.
The best way to check is to use a high gear and accelerate going up hill to see if the clutch starts slipping.
If the slave seals are too tight this can easily mimic a worn clutch by making the clutch slip when changing gear.
Either way the hassle of fixing the problem is significant, and once the gearbox is removed there will be an argument that the clutch plates should be renewed anyway, unless they are very fresh.
Similarly the £6 pilot bearing should be changed whenever you remove the gearbox, and the input shaft play should be checked and the retainer re-shimmed if necessary. The problem is that you can't get the shims in the UK, you need to order them as a kit from the US; best to do so in advance, I bought mine from americanpowertrainwarehouse.com part code T5-SMK.
Failure to do so can be very very costly - as I found out.
Good man.The best way to check is to use a high gear and accelerate going up hill to see if the clutch starts slipping.
If the slave seals are too tight this can easily mimic a worn clutch by making the clutch slip when changing gear.
Either way the hassle of fixing the problem is significant, and once the gearbox is removed there will be an argument that the clutch plates should be renewed anyway, unless they are very fresh.
Similarly the £6 pilot bearing should be changed whenever you remove the gearbox, and the input shaft play should be checked and the retainer re-shimmed if necessary. The problem is that you can't get the shims in the UK, you need to order them as a kit from the US; best to do so in advance, I bought mine from americanpowertrainwarehouse.com part code T5-SMK.
Failure to do so can be very very costly - as I found out.
I've taken note.
I wanted to check in here to see if there were any oddities with the cerb set up before I take a hammer to it...its been years since I changed a clutch and the prospect this time is on axels which I'm
not particularly looking forward to.
The thrust release bearing is making a racket in neutral as well. I'll have a little double check about chaps as a DD exercise but I think its fooked.
I'm going to order those shims while I pull it to pieces, inspect and then make a call on which way to go.
I like just looking and sitting in it but a few weeks of driving would have been nice, not much this side of March now I bet.
A sound bunch over there at gearboxman
They kept the damaged parts, from a few years ago, for me to have a look at.
Turns out I blew third gear on both the main shaft and the third cog itself
They kept the damaged parts, from a few years ago, for me to have a look at.
Turns out I blew third gear on both the main shaft and the third cog itself
PhilH42 said:
I wanted to check in here to see if there were any oddities with the cerb set up before I take a hammer to it...its been years since I changed a clutch and the prospect this time is on axels which I'm
not particularly looking forward to.
I can change the clutch on my 928 in under three hours, the design is so gorgeous.not particularly looking forward to.
It takes me about three weeks to change the clutch on the Cerb.
Most people leave the eshaust manifolds in place, I do not, and that does increase the time taken significantly.
Well I've spent the last three days getting to the clutch. Mad Mark's guide works well for most of it and very helpful. But the sp6 is slightly different as is the gear linkage on the tremec box.
Trays and Exhausts off easy enough and I've removed the cats ready for decats to go back.
Four bolts on the prop PITA, best way I found was to use the compressor and gun with a 14mm socket on the bolt to shock loosen and then a 13mm spanner to lock the back nut while rachet and 14mm socket to remove.
I drained the gearbox oil and found a couple of teeth so I'm rebuilding it and so could remove the prop rather than tie up.
I seperated the box first by way of the four bolts that secure to the bell housing after disconnecting the reverse switch and removed the support bracket as per the guide, but the access to the top right bolt looking at it from the rear was ridiculous to get onto due to the way the sp6 exhausts run which shifts the box to one side very close to the chassis. I had to lower the box as much as possible whilst an axel under for support and a locking 14" extension in two parts to get it out. Now I think in hindsight as long as there's enough play for the gear lever to remain in place is to remove with the bell housing. If not you have to remove the securing plate which is four bolts...two at the top of the box and two lower on the rear of the box to release from the linkage.
The process could actually be quite quick if it was not for access and working on axels.
Bell housing removed and so clutch off on Friday for inspection.
Trays and Exhausts off easy enough and I've removed the cats ready for decats to go back.
Four bolts on the prop PITA, best way I found was to use the compressor and gun with a 14mm socket on the bolt to shock loosen and then a 13mm spanner to lock the back nut while rachet and 14mm socket to remove.
I drained the gearbox oil and found a couple of teeth so I'm rebuilding it and so could remove the prop rather than tie up.
I seperated the box first by way of the four bolts that secure to the bell housing after disconnecting the reverse switch and removed the support bracket as per the guide, but the access to the top right bolt looking at it from the rear was ridiculous to get onto due to the way the sp6 exhausts run which shifts the box to one side very close to the chassis. I had to lower the box as much as possible whilst an axel under for support and a locking 14" extension in two parts to get it out. Now I think in hindsight as long as there's enough play for the gear lever to remain in place is to remove with the bell housing. If not you have to remove the securing plate which is four bolts...two at the top of the box and two lower on the rear of the box to release from the linkage.
The process could actually be quite quick if it was not for access and working on axels.
Bell housing removed and so clutch off on Friday for inspection.
Edited by PhilH42 on Wednesday 25th October 21:43
Edited by PhilH42 on Wednesday 25th October 21:49
Clutch off...What do you reckon chaps?
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/nCjUfhVR.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/JNB5715v" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/JNB5715v.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/MoaniQZq" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/MoaniQZq.jpg)
CG refurb? Wait for Dom? or Helix gamble? I'm seriously torn
Flywheel seems to have wear grooves from the springs, face looks ok...good enough to reuse or worth machining?
Is it worth me changing the pilot spigot bearing?
The slave had no leaks and looks good...new seals or raceproved...I'm just not sure on this one, if it had been leaking the decision would be easier?
I've opened up the the gearbox and bonus all the gears look sound and clean with no obvious signs of wear even though I thought I'd found a tooth, think it must have been from elsewhere as the drain bowl was dirty from previously. Any suggestions of what sealant to use to mate the faces again?
Thanks.
CG refurb? Wait for Dom? or Helix gamble? I'm seriously torn
Flywheel seems to have wear grooves from the springs, face looks ok...good enough to reuse or worth machining?
Is it worth me changing the pilot spigot bearing?
The slave had no leaks and looks good...new seals or raceproved...I'm just not sure on this one, if it had been leaking the decision would be easier?
I've opened up the the gearbox and bonus all the gears look sound and clean with no obvious signs of wear even though I thought I'd found a tooth, think it must have been from elsewhere as the drain bowl was dirty from previously. Any suggestions of what sealant to use to mate the faces again?
Thanks.
Well done, good work
But now you've go this far I'm not sure why you're even wondering whether you should replace the £6 pilot bearing
You can borrow the puller I have, no problem as long as you can pick it up from me
As for the plates, they are apparently 7.1mm new, so unless you like removing the gbox, I think you should change them if they are significantly less
I'd be interested in seeing the gbox damage - you said you have found debris in the drained fluid?
But now you've go this far I'm not sure why you're even wondering whether you should replace the £6 pilot bearing
You can borrow the puller I have, no problem as long as you can pick it up from me
As for the plates, they are apparently 7.1mm new, so unless you like removing the gbox, I think you should change them if they are significantly less
I'd be interested in seeing the gbox damage - you said you have found debris in the drained fluid?
Thanks.
I'm not deliberating over the pilot bearing really more a case of hoping someone will say don't be a dick just change it....now confirmed
Thanks for the offer I might take you up on that or pack it with grease and hammer it.
Clutch wise its not going back in as is and I've read about the 7.1mm thickness and its down level ish with rivets, its just after reading so many conflicting arguments I don't want to make the wrong call.
Any tips for getting the flywheel bolts off...they laughed in the face of my compressor gun today, so I'm considering my options.
The gearbox all seems good ijust expected the worst when I found the metal tooth. I think the piece of metal was in the dirty drain bowl, should of wiped it out first but its come from somewhere just not the gearbox.
Yes chassis is very good, little bit of flaking by the cats only which is common I hear, but I'll sort that before reassembly and the cats will not be going back in.
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/P5zny6H5.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/6X8qE2dM" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/6X8qE2dM.jpg)
I'm not deliberating over the pilot bearing really more a case of hoping someone will say don't be a dick just change it....now confirmed
Thanks for the offer I might take you up on that or pack it with grease and hammer it.Clutch wise its not going back in as is and I've read about the 7.1mm thickness and its down level ish with rivets, its just after reading so many conflicting arguments I don't want to make the wrong call.
Any tips for getting the flywheel bolts off...they laughed in the face of my compressor gun today, so I'm considering my options.
The gearbox all seems good ijust expected the worst when I found the metal tooth. I think the piece of metal was in the dirty drain bowl, should of wiped it out first but its come from somewhere just not the gearbox.
Yes chassis is very good, little bit of flaking by the cats only which is common I hear, but I'll sort that before reassembly and the cats will not be going back in.
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