Clarification of insurance position.
Discussion
Amusing that you picked GMP.
If you are not already aware of GMP v Pryor it is worth a read
http://www.legalknowledgescotland.com/?p=263
If you are not already aware of GMP v Pryor it is worth a read
http://www.legalknowledgescotland.com/?p=263
I thought that if somebody shows a certificate, it's presumed genuine?
OK - having read that case above, that seems to be the case - police should take a certificate at face value if one is shown. I'm sure they do that /all/ the time...and would never just turn round and say "don't believe you mate".</sarcasm>
OK - having read that case above, that seems to be the case - police should take a certificate at face value if one is shown. I'm sure they do that /all/ the time...and would never just turn round and say "don't believe you mate".</sarcasm>
tigger1 said:
I thought that if somebody shows a certificate, it's presumed genuine?
OK - having read that case above, that seems to be the case - police should take a certificate at face value if one is shown. I'm sure they do that /all/ the time...and would never just turn round and say "don't believe you mate".</sarcasm>
Most Police don’t care if you’ve a print out or not as you ‘could have just made it and printed it off yourself at home’OK - having read that case above, that seems to be the case - police should take a certificate at face value if one is shown. I'm sure they do that /all/ the time...and would never just turn round and say "don't believe you mate".</sarcasm>
I used to print out all my stuff but after being told it was worthless I stopped bothering. They wanna find out if I have insurance they can do the work. I don’t even make an effort to remember who I’m insured with now. Docs get saved on my phone at renewal as a last just in case. Other than that they’re on their own.
TooMany2cvs said:
Forgeries apart, in these days of emailed PDFs, it's a doddle to have a cert that's not valid.
Not if you've just stolen the car.Also the forgery is only of use if its out of hours and the vehicle is not on the MID. If crims are spending their time making convincing false certificates that are rarely useful then they're not out robbing, win-win.
First reply from the plod, to the 4.00am scenario seems logical to me.
If its on the system, then happy days.
If its not on the system, but its a new policy start date then they take that document.
If ifs not on the system, but its an older starting date policy, then it should be considered suspicious and a risk assessment of some form taken.
TooMany2cvs said:
tigger1 said:
I thought that if somebody shows a certificate, it's presumed genuine?
It certainly shouldn't be.Forgeries apart, in these days of emailed PDFs, it's a doddle to have a cert that's not valid.
t and picked up speeding and parking tickets which, because the car isn't registered, have then defaulted and gone to the insured person (ie me). This person has an insurance certificate - in fact a quick askmid shows it as insured, so he just rolls out a new insurance policy every few days when the inscos cancel it - he won't flag ANPR because of insurance at any rate.The way I work when no insurance shown is:
Ask to produce certificate
If produced but still shown as no insurance, ring MIB/Insurance company if in working hours to confirm. If out of hours then report driver for no insurance and follow up with MIB in morning once the insurance company is open. If it turns out they were not insured, they are reported for no insurance.
If no certificate is provided but they state they just purchased the car or renewed, issue a notice for them to produce certificate within 7 days. If they fail to produce or they were not insured at the time they are reported for no insurance.
If they are stating they are driving under another policy on another vehicle, ask for reg of that vehicle and run checks, ring MIB to check they are insured to drive other cars and whether the other car requires it's own insurance policy in place.
The amount of people that ring up taking out insurance after being stopped is staggering. They really think we won't notice a policy was taken out 15 mins after a stop.
Ask to produce certificate
If produced but still shown as no insurance, ring MIB/Insurance company if in working hours to confirm. If out of hours then report driver for no insurance and follow up with MIB in morning once the insurance company is open. If it turns out they were not insured, they are reported for no insurance.
If no certificate is provided but they state they just purchased the car or renewed, issue a notice for them to produce certificate within 7 days. If they fail to produce or they were not insured at the time they are reported for no insurance.
If they are stating they are driving under another policy on another vehicle, ask for reg of that vehicle and run checks, ring MIB to check they are insured to drive other cars and whether the other car requires it's own insurance policy in place.
The amount of people that ring up taking out insurance after being stopped is staggering. They really think we won't notice a policy was taken out 15 mins after a stop.
HantsRat said:
The way I work when no insurance shown is:
Ask to produce certificate
If produced but still shown as no insurance, ring MIB/Insurance company if in working hours to confirm. If out of hours then report driver for no insurance and follow up with MIB in morning once the insurance company is open. If it turns out they were not insured, they are reported for no insurance.
If no certificate is provided but they state they just purchased the car or renewed, issue a notice for them to produce certificate within 7 days. If they fail to produce or they were not insured at the time they are reported for no insurance.
If they are stating they are driving under another policy on another vehicle, ask for reg of that vehicle and run checks, ring MIB to check they are insured to drive other cars and whether the other car requires it's own insurance policy in place.
The amount of people that ring up taking out insurance after being stopped is staggering. They really think we won't notice a policy was taken out 15 mins after a stop.
That’s a sensible response and one by which I would be happy to be dealt with by. Is there any circumstance where you’d seize a car where the owner has a certificate but no other evidence of valid insurance?Ask to produce certificate
If produced but still shown as no insurance, ring MIB/Insurance company if in working hours to confirm. If out of hours then report driver for no insurance and follow up with MIB in morning once the insurance company is open. If it turns out they were not insured, they are reported for no insurance.
If no certificate is provided but they state they just purchased the car or renewed, issue a notice for them to produce certificate within 7 days. If they fail to produce or they were not insured at the time they are reported for no insurance.
If they are stating they are driving under another policy on another vehicle, ask for reg of that vehicle and run checks, ring MIB to check they are insured to drive other cars and whether the other car requires it's own insurance policy in place.
The amount of people that ring up taking out insurance after being stopped is staggering. They really think we won't notice a policy was taken out 15 mins after a stop.
KungFuPanda said:
That’s a sensible response and one by which I would be happy to be dealt with by. Is there any circumstance where you’d seize a car where the owner has a certificate but no other evidence of valid insurance?
If it obviously a fake yes.Most people have online banking these days too which can tally up with the date on their certificate to prove payment. I've asked people to show me direct debits etc at the roadside from banking apps too.
HantsRat said:
The amount of people that ring up taking out insurance after being stopped is staggering. They really think we won't notice a policy was taken out 15 mins after a stop.
We get this all the time. It's a real ballache.The scam of the moment is for someone to buy a policy that gives access to the MID - normally a motor trade policy.
They then do one of two things - add some of their mates reg numbers so they appear on the database (but are uninsured) or the real clever charlies set up as a "ghost" insurance broker - make a nice set of documents and sell a few policies. At one or 2k a policy you can shift quite a few through facebook before you are caught.
If the cert is valid and they show it, its game over and if you seize the vehicle because you 100% believe its not insured and it turns out to be then its compo time for the driver.
Question is, at 3am if you are 100% certain he or she is not insured, how do you prove the cert is not valid?
Question is, at 3am if you are 100% certain he or she is not insured, how do you prove the cert is not valid?
desolate said:
We get this all the time. It's a real ballache.
The scam of the moment is for someone to buy a policy that gives access to the MID - normally a motor trade policy.
They then do one of two things - add some of their mates reg numbers so they appear on the database (but are uninsured) or the real clever charlies set up as a "ghost" insurance broker - make a nice set of documents and sell a few policies. At one or 2k a policy you can shift quite a few through facebook before you are caught.
yThe scam of the moment is for someone to buy a policy that gives access to the MID - normally a motor trade policy.
They then do one of two things - add some of their mates reg numbers so they appear on the database (but are uninsured) or the real clever charlies set up as a "ghost" insurance broker - make a nice set of documents and sell a few policies. At one or 2k a policy you can shift quite a few through facebook before you are caught.
Ghost brokers generally do not print "fake" certificates. The normal m.o is to ring up an insurer such as direct line and take out a policy in the victims name (driver) with a very low rated post code and a much older age and without declaring convictions etc. DL then send documents to ghost broker and they just send the victim the certificate.
If the victim checks mid the car shows as being insured
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