Bad First Porsche Experience
Discussion
Bought my first Porsche, a 997TTS, in March this year from a dealership. I picked it up on the way to seeing my parents, and as soon as I got on the motorway and put my foot down I got a "Transmission Emergency Run" message. Stopped at the services, restarted the car and message went only to reappear as soon as accelerating along the slip road. The dealership was very apologetic and picked the car up and diagnosed the fault as a boost actuator rod failure. This was replaced and the car returned after which it seemed to be fine, for all of a week.
After that the same error message returned but this time turned out to be a temperature sensor in the PDK that needed replacing. Another couple of weeks of ownership lost. I then get it back in time to go and visit a mate in Exmouth and whilst keeping the speed constant up long hills notice the revs fluctuating by ~200rpm. The problem is easy to reproduce and can be done by accelerating from 1500 - 2000 rpm on the flat as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LCUcBT9S-E
The dealership once again apologises and takes the car in to investigate. Another week and it is supposedly cured by a software reset. I pick the car up and the fault occurs straight away on my way home. Call them back, arrange to bring it in and take one of the techs out to show them the issue happening. They take it in again, do some more investigation and find a sensor gunged up next to the fly wheel so replace some seals and the sensor and say it is fixed. Pick it up, same problem straight away. Not happy. Take it in again, take a tech out and make sure they can reproduce for me, which he easily does. Left it with them... 2 months ago.
It is now with Porsche GB. They still do not have a clue about the cause or how they are going to fix it. Latest idea from the Gold Tech is that it is carbonisation in the engine, although how that causes the clutch to disengage I can't imagine. They are in the process of taking the heads of to investigate further. Lucky if I get updates of once a week unless I chase them. I have a Macan loan car that doesn't fit in the narrow garage (well it does if I climb out the boot) and I can't leave it on the street as it is permit parking and can't transfer the permit to a car I don't own.
Out of the 8 months I have owned it, Porsche have had it for more than a third of that time. I'm getting rather fed up as it was meant to have spent less time off the road than my Cerbera did.
I'm not really sure what to do now. Everything is being paid for under warranty, the Macan is a bit of a pain but they have offered to replace it with a smaller car (not Porsche) through Enterprise Rent-A-Car. Everyone I've been in contact with has been helpful. Being updated could be better, but there isn't much news until they actually discover something new. I don't have the confidence that they will have fixed this even by Christmas. Taking the heads off shouldn't be that big a job should it? (Taken a week!) Are they taking the proverbial by taking so long?
After that the same error message returned but this time turned out to be a temperature sensor in the PDK that needed replacing. Another couple of weeks of ownership lost. I then get it back in time to go and visit a mate in Exmouth and whilst keeping the speed constant up long hills notice the revs fluctuating by ~200rpm. The problem is easy to reproduce and can be done by accelerating from 1500 - 2000 rpm on the flat as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LCUcBT9S-E
The dealership once again apologises and takes the car in to investigate. Another week and it is supposedly cured by a software reset. I pick the car up and the fault occurs straight away on my way home. Call them back, arrange to bring it in and take one of the techs out to show them the issue happening. They take it in again, do some more investigation and find a sensor gunged up next to the fly wheel so replace some seals and the sensor and say it is fixed. Pick it up, same problem straight away. Not happy. Take it in again, take a tech out and make sure they can reproduce for me, which he easily does. Left it with them... 2 months ago.
It is now with Porsche GB. They still do not have a clue about the cause or how they are going to fix it. Latest idea from the Gold Tech is that it is carbonisation in the engine, although how that causes the clutch to disengage I can't imagine. They are in the process of taking the heads of to investigate further. Lucky if I get updates of once a week unless I chase them. I have a Macan loan car that doesn't fit in the narrow garage (well it does if I climb out the boot) and I can't leave it on the street as it is permit parking and can't transfer the permit to a car I don't own.
Out of the 8 months I have owned it, Porsche have had it for more than a third of that time. I'm getting rather fed up as it was meant to have spent less time off the road than my Cerbera did.
I'm not really sure what to do now. Everything is being paid for under warranty, the Macan is a bit of a pain but they have offered to replace it with a smaller car (not Porsche) through Enterprise Rent-A-Car. Everyone I've been in contact with has been helpful. Being updated could be better, but there isn't much news until they actually discover something new. I don't have the confidence that they will have fixed this even by Christmas. Taking the heads off shouldn't be that big a job should it? (Taken a week!) Are they taking the proverbial by taking so long?
I wouldn't be surprised if they would be happy to give me my money back. Asking prices are 10-15% higher then when I bought. They could make a nice profit and hope the next owner didn't notice the weird behaviour. I would be happy with a comparable replacement car, but these are rather rare and this one took me several months to find.
After the PDK issue they offered me the next service FOC so there is some good will there.
After the PDK issue they offered me the next service FOC so there is some good will there.
How many owners has it had ? Has it got a full OPC service history and by checking the various documentation including MOTs is the mileage accrued by the previous owners evenly spread with no long periods of not being driven..Maybe all it needs is a damn good long distance thrashing to de-carbonise the engine and add some fuel additive as well.
You have been exceptionally patient and courteous with the OPC but its probably time to play hardball just in case they're taking you for granted..
You have been exceptionally patient and courteous with the OPC but its probably time to play hardball just in case they're taking you for granted..
OPCs all bang on about their meticulous inspections prior to sale of an approved car. I would be suggesting to them that they really haven't done that particularly well.
And I'd be looking for more than a free service to compensate for being without my car for months.
It sounds like they are trying to resolve the issue but this is still a major inconvenience for you.
Hope you get it sorted
And I'd be looking for more than a free service to compensate for being without my car for months.
It sounds like they are trying to resolve the issue but this is still a major inconvenience for you.
Hope you get it sorted
A few things spring to mind;
- ask them to replace the Macan with a 911 loaner. They really should be giving you a like for like car whilst you're putting up with this rubbish
- give them 14 days to permanently fix it, or you'd like them to buy the car back off you at the latest market price (i.e. what it would cost you to replace it)
- get the service manager to confirm that he/she has driven the car and signed it off before you pick it up (their quality control sounds more like VW than Porsche).
- put all this in writing
- ask them to replace the Macan with a 911 loaner. They really should be giving you a like for like car whilst you're putting up with this rubbish
- give them 14 days to permanently fix it, or you'd like them to buy the car back off you at the latest market price (i.e. what it would cost you to replace it)
- get the service manager to confirm that he/she has driven the car and signed it off before you pick it up (their quality control sounds more like VW than Porsche).
- put all this in writing
Sorry to hear of your really bad experiences!
Hopefully they will sort and give you some form of compensation and a better car in the meantime
It maybe worth writing/calling the previous owner(s) to see if this is a lemon or just bad luck - if the former ask for your money back + 15% or one in the network as a direct exchange - if there is one.
Good Luck!
Hopefully they will sort and give you some form of compensation and a better car in the meantime
It maybe worth writing/calling the previous owner(s) to see if this is a lemon or just bad luck - if the former ask for your money back + 15% or one in the network as a direct exchange - if there is one.
Good Luck!
I did a bit of research buying, but didn't look at the warranty claim history, I'll ask for that now.
It's had 3 previous owners and full OPC service history. Mileage seems ok:
2012 - 5002 miles (Service)
2013 - 6939 miles (MOT)
2014 - 7915 miles (Service)
2014 - 8012 miles (MOT)
2015 - 14296 miles (MOT)
2016 - 20910 miles (MOT)
2016 - 20988 miles (Service)
2017 - 24570 miles (MOT)
Just spoke to the previous owner and he doesn't remember any issues with it.
I have a feeling that the current issue only started after the PDK temp sensors were replaced, but having only had the car a few weeks at that point I couldn't be certain. Porsche have said they are certain it is not the PDK though. (Although they can't say how they are certain.)
It's had 3 previous owners and full OPC service history. Mileage seems ok:
2012 - 5002 miles (Service)
2013 - 6939 miles (MOT)
2014 - 7915 miles (Service)
2014 - 8012 miles (MOT)
2015 - 14296 miles (MOT)
2016 - 20910 miles (MOT)
2016 - 20988 miles (Service)
2017 - 24570 miles (MOT)
Just spoke to the previous owner and he doesn't remember any issues with it.
I have a feeling that the current issue only started after the PDK temp sensors were replaced, but having only had the car a few weeks at that point I couldn't be certain. Porsche have said they are certain it is not the PDK though. (Although they can't say how they are certain.)
Am I not correct in thinking that the PDK is SUPPOSED to do this and it is in Porsche's literature as representing a 'virtual ratio'. It does indeed do it under the circumstances you describe and is in their blurb as doing this. There has been a thread on this already somewhere. It doesn't do it when under throttle or motorway cruising. Slight incline and partial throttle sounds exactly when it might do this. It is supposed to be when a specific ratio is not quite optimal.
ScienceTeacher said:
Am I not correct in thinking that the PDK is SUPPOSED to do this and it is in Porsche's literature as representing a 'virtual ratio'.
I looked into this when I first encountered the issue. The virtual gears are only available on the version of the PDK in the 991 and later. Besides, I don't think they would have spent over 2 months and 1 warranty claim already if they thought it could be that. Also the virtual gear should not fluctuate causing slight surges in acceleration, it should keep a balance between two gears and not be noticeable.If something is causing the engine to surge (carbonisation can cause this apparently) then I guess the PDK could be modulating the clutch engagement to smooth out the surges.
http://press.porsche.com/vehicles/2014/PM_911_Turb...
Quickly found this. Explained on page 6.
Surely it cannot be as simple as this???? Surely!
I really don't use the OPC network.
Quickly found this. Explained on page 6.
Surely it cannot be as simple as this???? Surely!
I really don't use the OPC network.
Jabbah said:
It is not virtual gears:
1) They are only available on 991 PDK and later
2) The issue happens in 7th gear. Virtual gears work by lowering the engine speed by engaging the next higher gear if available.
Apologies. I did not read your first response before posting my second point. Crucially, I did not recognise that it caused surges in acceleration. This is clearly a bit dodgy. WRT the point above, I can't help but still feel that this is what it is doing, however. I see no reason why virtual ratios should not select a lower ratio blend if 7 is a bit long - a 6/ combo if you will. It is likely that with the best will in the world when changing ratios to blend then a slight acceleration or retardation might be sensed. Surge, however, seems pretty rum.1) They are only available on 991 PDK and later
2) The issue happens in 7th gear. Virtual gears work by lowering the engine speed by engaging the next higher gear if available.
Edited by Jabbah on Thursday 2nd November 10:24
Are we quite sure the earlier PDK did not do the virtual ratio thing??
I had a 997.2 turbo PDK - can confirm it shouldn't do that.
Anyway - clearly the OPC agrees.
I had a further think about it - it's obviously a special car and not many of them around, so I can understand why you'd want it fixed rather than bought back.
Obviously there is a process to go through - back and forth with the factory technical support, getting approval to do further warranty work etc. etc.
I don't think they're being unreasonable going through that process - clearly they want to check the things cheaper to replace and work through to more expensive options.
Obviously if at any time you run out of patience they should buy back as per previous post.
I also think they should put you in a 718 or even a 911 whilst they sort this out - you have a very special 911 there you haven't been able to use for months. You shouldn't have to go around in a Macan if you don't want to - worth asking the question, there are plenty of 718s in most OPCs networks being used as service cars/ demos.
Anyway - clearly the OPC agrees.
I had a further think about it - it's obviously a special car and not many of them around, so I can understand why you'd want it fixed rather than bought back.
Obviously there is a process to go through - back and forth with the factory technical support, getting approval to do further warranty work etc. etc.
I don't think they're being unreasonable going through that process - clearly they want to check the things cheaper to replace and work through to more expensive options.
Obviously if at any time you run out of patience they should buy back as per previous post.
I also think they should put you in a 718 or even a 911 whilst they sort this out - you have a very special 911 there you haven't been able to use for months. You shouldn't have to go around in a Macan if you don't want to - worth asking the question, there are plenty of 718s in most OPCs networks being used as service cars/ demos.
ScienceTeacher said:
Apologies. I did not read your first response before posting my second point. Crucially, I did not recognise that it caused surges in acceleration. This is clearly a bit dodgy.
No worries, this whole issue is starting to make me a bit cranky. The surging is how I first noticed it, then looking at the revs to confirm. It's subtle but noticeable. I've noticed around corners as well which is slightly unsettling.ScienceTeacher said:
WRT the point above, I can't help but still feel that this is what it is doing, however. I see no reason why virtual ratios should not select a lower ratio blend if 7 is a bit long - a 6/ combo if you will. It is likely that with the best will in the world when changing ratios to blend then a slight acceleration or retardation might be sensed. Surge, however, seems pretty rum.
Something else I hadn't mentioned in this thread is that it does it in manual mode as well as auto so shouldn't be trying to do anything in manual mode. However, from what I understand the virtual gears will be used when a lower gear ratio would be more efficient but the next lower physical ratio would cause the engine to stall or labour. At that point it will use a virtual gear to lower engine rpm to the most economical level for the speed. If you are going fast enough for 7th gear to be engaged then there is no lower ratio to slip between.ScienceTeacher said:
Are we quite sure the earlier PDK did not do the virtual ratio thing??
Not certain but it was only advertised on the 991 and later. I've asked the service manager at the OPC so we'll see.Oso said:
I had a further think about it - it's obviously a special car and not many of them around, so I can understand why you'd want it fixed rather than bought back.
Obviously there is a process to go through - back and forth with the factory technical support, getting approval to do further warranty work etc. etc.
I don't think they're being unreasonable going through that process - clearly they want to check the things cheaper to replace and work through to more expensive options.
I do love the car, so would prefer not to lose it. I understand there is a process they have to keep to, just seems to be taking even longer now it's at Reading as they are even having to get direction from Technical. A bit more communication and a 718 would certainly go a long way to making me happy (as opposed to the Mini Clubman that Enterprise offered to fit in the garage).Obviously there is a process to go through - back and forth with the factory technical support, getting approval to do further warranty work etc. etc.
I don't think they're being unreasonable going through that process - clearly they want to check the things cheaper to replace and work through to more expensive options.
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