What do you think of these speakers? (Crackie et al)

[hyphen]

Been reading good things about a diy flat packed speaker company in the US. Lots of happy customers on other forums.

Crackie I think you said are involved in the speaker industry so would appreciate your thoughts, along with everyone elses

They do all sorts, from Subs to Home cinema

http://www.diysoundgroup.com

[legzr1]

There's healthy discussion on DIY speakers over at avforums especially subs

[FlossyThePig]

Why not have a look at what Wilmslow Audio have to offer.

http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk

Many years ago I made a pair of speakers using their LS3 kit (based on the BBC LS3/5A design), which is still available. I had the idea of adding a sub woofer but the one they recommended was beyond my budget at the time.

[GetCarter]

Price doesn’t mean much, but they are very cheap, and one generally gets what one pays for with hi fi.

Just a thought.

[cerbfan]

The IPL Acoustics speakers are very highly regarded especially the transmission line versions. I made one of their subs and it was excellent for the money.

[OldSkoolRS]

There are a few threads in the sub forum on AVF:

https://www.avforums.com/forums/diy-speaker-subwoo...

Some of the owners have sold their MK or XTZ speakers and replaced them with these, so maybe GerCarter's comments about price is a little disingenuous.

A couple of them are due a visit to hear my set up (with MK Sound 300 series speakers) so it'll be interesting to see what they make of mine verses their DIY option.

FWIW I built my 2 of my own subs to go with the MK speakers (and two 'infill' Mk in wall subs), so I'm not averse to DIY myself.

EDIT: One thing I would say about DIY is that regardless of how cheap they are; if you change your mind and decide to sell them don't expect much if any interest for them. I've seen a few upgrading on AVF and their 'old' speakers have hung around for months without sale.

Edited by OldSkoolRS on Tuesday 14th November 23:04

[Monty Python]

I note on their website "Currently I'm only accepting Paypal, checks, and money orders for US residents. In the future I will look into accepting credit cards to make things a little easier and also find a cheap way to ship to other countries. I don't mind shipping to other countries right now, but you should find a shipping forwarder."

Once you've added shipping, components for the crossovers, wadding and covering you're probably getting close in price to some really good budget speakers (ones you can actually listen to before buying).

[NorthDave]

FlossyThePig said:

Why not have a look at what Wilmslow Audio have to offer.

http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk

Many years ago I made a pair of speakers using their LS3 kit (based on the BBC LS3/5A design), which is still available. I had the idea of adding a sub woofer but the one they recommended was beyond my budget at the time.

I was just about to post the same - a great company who have been going a long time. Their demo facilities were great last time I went and they are very knowledgeable.

I havent dealt with them for a few years but when I did they were great.

[hyphen]

Thanks everyone, didn't realise there were Uk based kit makes as well. Will look more into them but as wanting LCR may go with the americans.

OldSkoolRS said:

There are a few threads in the sub forum on AVF:
Some of the owners have sold their MK or XTZ speakers and replaced them with these, so maybe GerCarter's comments about price is a little disingenuous.

That is what perked my interest, that established online members with these well regarded speakers have said these diy ones are actually better. And the established companies don't help themselves by continually raising the prices.

I know what you mean about the re-sale value, but if they are as good as they are said to be, hopefully I will keep permanently.

Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 15th November 11:18

[gizlaroc]

GetCarter said:

Price doesn’t mean much, but they are very cheap, and one generally gets what one pays for with hi fi.

Just a thought.

But a pair of £3000 speakers comes to about £6-700 in parts at retail, bulk for a speaker manufacturer would probably put the parts at around £3-400?

Setting up a factory to build them is not cheap, paying the labour to staff the factory is not cheap, achieving a margin selling to the distributer almost doubles the cost and then the retail needs to be able to double again to stay in business.

[Crackie]

hyphen said:

Been reading good things about a diy flat packed speaker company in the US. Lots of happy customers on other forums.

Crackie I think you said are involved in the speaker industry so would appreciate your thoughts, along with everyone elses

They do all sorts, from Subs to Home cinema

http://www.diysoundgroup.com

Hi Hyphen, I've seen the diy sound group site before and when searching for horns and waveguides. Their kits appear to be great value ( possibly not so good if shipping outside the US though ) ; I've not heard any of them.

Building your own speakers from a well designed kit can produce results better than commercial speakers ( at the same price point. ) I think there are two primary areas where home built units can often be poor though ; cabinets are often just overly simple unbraced MDF boxes and the crossovers aren't as well engineered / developed as commercial designs.

Poor cabinetry and sub standard crossovers can both have a big negative effect on the sound. If the kits crossover is well done or is a copy of an established high quality product ( LS 3/5a for example ) then the that side of things should be fine. Build or buy the highest quality cabinets you possibly can, make the cabinets a little deeper than the original design and then add extra bracing to stiffen / strengthen the enclosure. Line the cabinets walls with rubber to damp them ( old rubber car floor mats work well and are cheap )

Wilmslow are good ( they built the big1/4 wave bass cabinets for my active system a few years back.....£1650 for the pair ). Good cabinets still impact the sound you hear quite badly; I worked in the speaker cabinet industry for many years and I really dislike what effect they have. My own home speakers use open baffles above 100Hz;

https://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/drive-units-1/ac... have been around for a long time and distribute some very high quality drivers ( Accuton for example )

I think some of best kit designs I've seen have been developed by Troels Gravesen . IMHO his crossovers are very well executed and better than many commercial designs I've measured. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/VifaPL14WJ-R2604.htm

Probably the best of all the kits are the ones developed by Seigfried Linkwitz; there are many that think that the LX521 is one of, if not best, sounding speaker they've heard. Apparently if you don't need the max volume level or deep bass of the LX521 then the LK mini offers reference performance for approx. $600.00. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/Introduction.htm

and John Kreskovsky http://www.musicanddesign.com/naomain.html is another who designs speakers without conventional enclosures.

What's your budget Hyphen ?? Would you consider designing your own speakers from scratch ? If you do fancy getting involved I do recommend it; lots to learn but none is very taxing, very satisfying when the project completed and a success. If you do want to do the design yourself then I'd recommend one of these to do the crossover ( http://cpc.farnell.com/mini-dsp/mdsp-24/digital-si...

If you don't fancy getting involved in the crossover design then I'd recommend using a single full range driver ( Fostex or similar ) http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/ff125wk-reflex-cab... Veneered cabs +. Fostex drivers £300.00 per pair. Would work as a CC too.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/archive.html More kit designs

http://www.linearteam.org/ Design / modelling freeware......simple & intuitive to use.

http://www.mh-audio.nl/ Multiple speaker design calculators

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.co.uk/ Australian speaker design forum

http://www.artalabs.hr/ measurement freeware ( used by Phillips, Sony, Siemens, Nokia, LG Electronics, Analog Devices, Beyer dynamic, Genelec, Ford Audio-Video, Logitech, Visaton, Revox, MBL, )

http://www.holmacoustics.com/holmimpulse.php measurement freeware very good for time alignment of drivers

http://www.tolvan.com/index.php?page=/basta/basta.... Design / modelling freeware

http://visaton.com/en/literature/software/software... Speaker design freeware

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ Speaker measurement and room correction freeware

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 16th November 22:52

[hyphen]

Many thanks Crackie

Nope nothing as ambitious as making speakers - I haven't touched a soldering iron for years!. Just seeking top quality LCR satellite speakers and very much put off by what I see as needless premium (over)pricing by the likes of MK and XTZ, and their ongoing prices rises. A fee owners of these brands have moved onto the DIY ones so tempted to do the same. Would be built into furniture so finish isn't a concern.

Will be reading through your links though as currently have 2 way PMC floorstanders for main hifi and would like to eventually upgrade them to 3 way, so may go the diy route for them too.

[Crackie]

hyphen said:

Many thanks Crackie

Nope nothing as ambitious as making speakers - I haven't touched a soldering iron for years!. Just seeking top quality LCR satellite speakers and very much put off by what I see as needless premium (over)pricing by the likes of MK and XTZ, and their ongoing prices rises. A fee owners of these brands have moved onto the DIY ones so tempted to do the same. Would be built into furniture so finish isn't a concern.

Will be reading through your links though as currently have 2 way PMC floorstanders for main hifi and would like to eventually upgrade them to 3 way, so may go the diy route for them too.

You're welcome......do you know how much space you might have available in the furniture. The reason I ask is I did a little investigating earlier today regarding BMR drivers. I think they could be a perfect solution for you; they are full range units and don't need crossovers.

BMR's are used by Naim, Rega, Cambridge Audio.

Golden Ear range might have something interesting for you http://www.karma-av.co.uk/assets/_managed/Price%20... SuperSat3 / 3C might be easy to hide in furniture.....

[hyphen]

Crackie said:

You're welcome......do you know how much space you might have available in the furniture. The reason I ask is I did a little investigating earlier today regarding BMR drivers. I think they could be a perfect solution for you; they are full range units and don't need crossovers.

BMR's are used by Naim, Rega, Cambridge Audio.

Golden Ear range might have something interesting for you http://www.karma-av.co.uk/assets/_managed/Price%20... SuperSat3 / 3C might be easy to hide in furniture.....

Thanks Crackie

Space is relatively flexible, rectangle living room, sofa on one side and projector will be on there other dropping in from of a window.

So will be building a unit across the full length of room up to window height. Will take a look at the Supersat's but think i am set on diy flatpack route now,I think i will go with DIYSG rather than deciding on own drivers such as BMR, just because I am new to it and it will be easier to resell if I decide to upgrade later.

Many Thanks.

[OldSkoolRS]

hyphen said:

I think i will go with DIYSG rather than deciding on own drivers such as BMR, just because I am new to it and it will be easier to resell if I decide to upgrade later.

Many Thanks.

As per my earlier post, don't bank on being able to sell them on if you outgrow them/want to change/upgrade; I've seen DIYSG kits languish in the classifieds only to be virtually given away in the end. IMHO, save up for what you really want and get it later as it'll work out cheaper in the long run. If need be buy some cheap used speakers to keep you going (that could be sold on at little loss later).