M400 fluctuating boostgauge
Discussion
Ian
I would imagine that you would feel a positive effect in acceleration between 0.7 and 1.2 bar so if you don’t its probably just a faulty gauge. If it was a leak then it would be low, not high. So its either over pressure which you would feel or a faulty gauge. At a guess, I think?
Damn that’s got me all excited about my desire for more power. Wishing my boost was 1.2!
TomB
I would imagine that you would feel a positive effect in acceleration between 0.7 and 1.2 bar so if you don’t its probably just a faulty gauge. If it was a leak then it would be low, not high. So its either over pressure which you would feel or a faulty gauge. At a guess, I think?
Damn that’s got me all excited about my desire for more power. Wishing my boost was 1.2!
TomB
Tom, you should have a chat with Vegantune about their boost option. They can make the buttons on the steering wheel into boost buttons that will give you up to 1.2 bar (IIRC) for a period of time. ECU re-map I think. Bit like the Fast and the Furious.
They put a new horn button on the s colulm and it costs about £800. Not bad I thought but I have no idea about the effect on the engine etc and if anyone would recommend it.
May be the answer to your dreams Sir.
They put a new horn button on the s colulm and it costs about £800. Not bad I thought but I have no idea about the effect on the engine etc and if anyone would recommend it.
May be the answer to your dreams Sir.
Just a word of caution the M400 specification engine runs close to its knock threshold as standard as such an increase in boost from 0.8bar to 1.2bar at some points in the rev range would put it very firmly over the knock threshold.
3R would be okay at 1.1bar for short periods of time.
The buttons on steering wheel - boost setup is a function of the second boost map capability the 975 ECU has, basicaly set switch one to activate secondary boost map, then use buttons on wheel to ground switch one.
Matt
3R would be okay at 1.1bar for short periods of time.
The buttons on steering wheel - boost setup is a function of the second boost map capability the 975 ECU has, basicaly set switch one to activate secondary boost map, then use buttons on wheel to ground switch one.
Matt
Matt_FP said:
an increase in boost from 0.8bar to 1.2bar at some points in the rev range would put it very firmly over the knock threshold.
Matt
I smell Optimax, Octane booster (Cats removed), a biger intercooler, and water injection coming on. but to be honest its's a right pain having to top up everything, and plan trips around Shell garages.
BTW, my M400 peaks to about 0.9 Bar and then drops to "hold" 0.8 when flooring it in 3rd.
If you've got time to look at the boost gauge while your driving on track, your not going fast enough.
silversix said:
an increase in boost from 0.8bar to 1.2bar at some points in the rev range would put it very firmly over the knock threshold.
Matt
I smell Optimax, Octane booster (Cats removed), a biger intercooler, and water injection coming on. but to be honest its's a right pain having to top up everything, and plan trips around Shell garages.
BTW, my M400 peaks to about 0.9 Bar and then drops to "hold" 0.8 when flooring it in 3rd.
If you've got time to look at the boost gauge while your driving on track, your not going fast enough.
We're developing a water injection system for the M400 at the moment which uses advanced fail safes to ensure theres no risk of engine damage and no 'absolute' need to fill the water resoirvoir.
In short it monitors flow rate through the water injector, water level in the resoirvoir and pump temp. Should any of these go out of acceptable range the WI system will trigger the ECU to reduce the boost level and then shut the WI system down.
Without the system operating you'd have a standard car, with it operating theres no reason 500bhp isn't on the cards.
Best Regards
Matt
Matt_FP said:
We're developing a water injection system for the M400 at the moment which uses advanced fail safes to ensure theres no risk of engine damage and no 'absolute' need to fill the water resoirvoir.
Planning to make this into a kit or is it something that you guys will need to install?
Matt_FP said:
silversix said:
[quote=Matt_FP]an increase in boost from 0.8bar to 1.2bar at some points in the rev range would put it very firmly over the knock threshold.
Matt
We're developing a water injection system for the M400 at the moment which uses advanced fail safes to ensure theres no risk of engine damage and no 'absolute' need to fill the water resoirvoir.
In short it monitors flow rate through the water injector, water level in the resoirvoir and pump temp. Should any of these go out of acceptable range the WI system will trigger the ECU to reduce the boost level and then shut the WI system down.
Without the system operating you'd have a standard car, with it operating theres no reason 500bhp isn't on the cards.
Best Regards
Matt
So Matt. You're bypassing the closed-loop boost control solenoid to increase boost and have tested the whole system to verify that the engine is safe with this extra boost. You know all about the power limits of this engine? Have you checked that the engine is safe from compressor surge under all conditions with this extra boost?
I'd just like to point out to all you power junkies that I and the factory have gone through extensive power development over the last two years. What you have in the M400 is a result of that knowledge.
Matt / Vegartune are NOT approved by the factory to do any power development or mapping. This is playing seriously fast and loose with the engine management.
The ECU is not mapped to cope with the extra boost they're proposing and therefore this system puts the engine at risk.
Caveat emptor
YellowShed
>> Edited by yellowshed on Friday 15th April 20:18
yellowshed said:
So Matt. You're bypassing the closed-loop boost control solenoid to increase boost and have tested the whole system to verify that the engine is safe with this extra boost. You know all about the power limits of this engine? Have you checked that the engine is safe from compressor surge under all conditions with this extra boost?
I'd just like to point out to all you power junkies that I and the factory have gone through extensive power development over the last two years. What you have in the M400 is a result of that knowledge.
Matt / Vegartune are NOT approved by the factory to do any power development or mapping. This is playing seriously fast and loose with the engine management.
The ECU is not mapped to cope with the extra boost they're proposing and therefore this system puts the engine at risk.
Caveat emptor
YellowShed
Trevor,
In no way are we playing "fast or lose" with anything. I strongly resent those comments (as I'm sure Vegantune would) and suggest you remove them, as I'm sure you are aware they could be considered libellous by Vegantune and my self.
We are not bypassing the closed loop boost control in anyway, rather using the secondary target boost map function that the 975 provides for use in conditions when the knock threshold is greatly increased. Boost control remains with the ECU which would be fully remapped to take into account the increase in boost pressure.
As with everything I/FP/FP-Technology undertake preserving OEM levels of reliability and driveability are of the highest priority and in no way do we provide any product or service which may negatively impact those points.
I'm sure you can't deny increasing the knock threshold of the M400 specification engine package would be advantageous?
Matt
Matt_FP said:
We are not bypassing the closed loop boost control in anyway, rather using the secondary target boost map function that the 975 provides for use in conditions when the knock threshold is greatly increased. Boost control remains with the ECU which would be fully remapped to take into account the increase in boost pressure.
You're re-mapping the ECU? I stand by my previous comment that you are not authorised by the factory to re-map the ECU.
Matt_FP said:
As with everything I/FP/FP-Technology undertake preserving OEM levels of reliability and driveability are of the highest priority and in no way do we provide any product or service which may negatively impact those points.
Matt
I stand by my previous comments that if you are increasing the boost levels then you are exceeding the levels that the factory (i.e. the OEM) and I have determined as safe for reliability. Ergo you ARE providing products/services that negatively impact that point.
YellowShed
yellowshed said:
We are not bypassing the closed loop boost control in anyway, rather using the secondary target boost map function that the 975 provides for use in conditions when the knock threshold is greatly increased. Boost control remains with the ECU which would be fully remapped to take into account the increase in boost pressure.
You're re-mapping the ECU? I stand by my previous comment that you are not authorised by the factory to re-map the ECU.
Matt_FP said:
As with everything I/FP/FP-Technology undertake preserving OEM levels of reliability and driveability are of the highest priority and in no way do we provide any product or service which may negatively impact those points.
Matt
I stand by my previous comments that if you are increasing the boost levels then you are exceeding the levels that the factory (i.e. the OEM) and I have determined as safe for reliability. Ergo you ARE providing products/services that negatively impact that point.
YellowShed
Trevor,
Rest assured we extensively test everything, and I do mean everything - if we feel there could be a negative impact on reliability or any other factor we will not release the product for market, its as simple as that. You cannot categorically state (and I'm extremely surprised you have) based on possession of limited facts that increasing X will be in detriment to Y.
Any owner has paid a considerable amount of money for their car - which includes the ECU. It is their choice as to any changes they wish to make to it, or any other components.
In response to Maneks request lets agree to disagree on this as due to our somewhat opposite positions within the same market we are unlikely to agree.
Best Regards
Matt
yellowshed said:
We are not bypassing the closed loop boost control in anyway, rather using the secondary target boost map function that the 975 provides for use in conditions when the knock threshold is greatly increased. Boost control remains with the ECU which would be fully remapped to take into account the increase in boost pressure.
You're re-mapping the ECU? I stand by my previous comment that you are not authorised by the factory to re-map the ECU.
Matt_FP said:
As with everything I/FP/FP-Technology undertake preserving OEM levels of reliability and driveability are of the highest priority and in no way do we provide any product or service which may negatively impact those points.
Matt
I stand by my previous comments that if you are increasing the boost levels then you are exceeding the levels that the factory (i.e. the OEM) and I have determined as safe for reliability. Ergo you ARE providing products/services that negatively impact that point.
YellowShed
Wooaahhh
Hang on you two. you two ain't going to agree so lets close it down. I have no vested interest so I hope I can offer an explanation, I've had conversations with both of you about "doing" my engine but surely whoever "owns" the car can do what they want with it?
Whilst its owned by the finance company or the factory via HP or on any other loan Trevor is right you can't do anything cos they won't agree but once I own it and if Matt's prepared to offer me stuff I can do anything I like, if I beleive sugar in the tank will get me extra boost I'll pour it in.
Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus, you name it there are endless after market modifiers who do things the factory would not sanction.
Matt is in that market. Providing he deals with the owner he can offer what he likes - but a wise aftermarket supplier would not want to impact on reliability too much.
Regards
Paul C
I have to agree with Paul. I have had the pleasure of owning a r33 skyline - standard is 280 BHP, I am sure Nissan would have said it would not be good to play with it, however it ran at 450bhp, using standard bottom end - with no problems. this from a 2.6 ltr engine. I am sure if the 2.5 "factory chip upgrade" could produce 350ish Bhp, a 3 litre could quite happily run 400bhp or so without serious reliability issues, espically if remapped to run higher octane fuel.
Maybe I am wrong. but surely it is up to us as owners of the cars to make that call. As the saying goes - you pays your money, you take your choice.
Maybe I am wrong. but surely it is up to us as owners of the cars to make that call. As the saying goes - you pays your money, you take your choice.
Generally speaking the manufacturers have a lot of data and testing under their belts and may have various reasons why they do not tune, or recommend you tune your car/s further (I would imagine risk factors like providing a reliable and affordable warranty would be an important one?).
I would think that a company like Noble would proudly offer a 500 or even 600bhp option if they felt it was in their best interest to do so. I would also think they must feel it is not in their best interest to do so at this time.
However by law, if you OWN it, then it’s yours to do whatever you want, save something outside the law. So where is it written in law that you cannot modify your car?
A few points worth considering though;
Modification may invalidate manufacturer’s warranty, and you should inform your insurance company.
Its worth considering that anything you do (or let others do) MAY be detrimental to your safety and wallet. Do they offer a FULL warranty and insurance?
I would suggest that the M400 engine can easily be PUSHED to 450-550 hp but how long will it last, and then what about the Gbox, diff, etc, etc?
That’s just my PO, but if manufacturers gave you far too much power to start with, you wouldn’t be looking for more. My GSXR1000 will go from 0-100mph and stop in just under 6 seconds, and you CAN get used to that if you do it enough. Now my GSXR1000 has plenty of power wouldn’t it be nice if it would stop and go round corners better. I am sure a car could do it better, safer, but probably not cheaper or much more reliably.
If you put an M400 engine in a CV2 you would be saying its far too powerful, and I personally agreed the M400 chassis and brakes are so good that they lead you to feel that they could handle about 500+bhp (so tell me, who in their right mind buys a car like this and does not want more power) and that I think is why people wouldn’t mind that little bit extra. (I know I would)
If the demand is there and the factory doesn’t offer what CUSTOMERS WANT, then you can’t blame others for wanting to provide.
I am a manufacturer myself (not cars thank God) and I know that sometimes in trying your very best to provide the MAJORITY of customers with the best overall compromise, you will always get a few that want something different, and sometimes getting ALL the important issues just right can take a little longer than some want .
But look at this record
2.5
3.0
M400, that’s more than good progress, but wants next (M500 hopefully) and when? (not too soon I hope, I have only just got my M400)
TomB
I would think that a company like Noble would proudly offer a 500 or even 600bhp option if they felt it was in their best interest to do so. I would also think they must feel it is not in their best interest to do so at this time.
However by law, if you OWN it, then it’s yours to do whatever you want, save something outside the law. So where is it written in law that you cannot modify your car?
A few points worth considering though;
Modification may invalidate manufacturer’s warranty, and you should inform your insurance company.
Its worth considering that anything you do (or let others do) MAY be detrimental to your safety and wallet. Do they offer a FULL warranty and insurance?
I would suggest that the M400 engine can easily be PUSHED to 450-550 hp but how long will it last, and then what about the Gbox, diff, etc, etc?
That’s just my PO, but if manufacturers gave you far too much power to start with, you wouldn’t be looking for more. My GSXR1000 will go from 0-100mph and stop in just under 6 seconds, and you CAN get used to that if you do it enough. Now my GSXR1000 has plenty of power wouldn’t it be nice if it would stop and go round corners better. I am sure a car could do it better, safer, but probably not cheaper or much more reliably.
If you put an M400 engine in a CV2 you would be saying its far too powerful, and I personally agreed the M400 chassis and brakes are so good that they lead you to feel that they could handle about 500+bhp (so tell me, who in their right mind buys a car like this and does not want more power) and that I think is why people wouldn’t mind that little bit extra. (I know I would)
If the demand is there and the factory doesn’t offer what CUSTOMERS WANT, then you can’t blame others for wanting to provide.
I am a manufacturer myself (not cars thank God) and I know that sometimes in trying your very best to provide the MAJORITY of customers with the best overall compromise, you will always get a few that want something different, and sometimes getting ALL the important issues just right can take a little longer than some want .
But look at this record
2.5
3.0
M400, that’s more than good progress, but wants next (M500 hopefully) and when? (not too soon I hope, I have only just got my M400)
TomB
Of course, we have no objection to (and no right to stop) owners who wish to push the performance envelope of their cars. However, every time Noble Automotive has launched a more powerful version of the M12 series, it has been preceeded my extensive testing. And I don't mean a quick blast around the local race track: our development programmes aim to prove that every component will remain durable, given the car's extra power, in all sorts of conditions. It costs us a lot of time, money and manpower to do this.
Therefore, when Trevor of Roush Technologies states that Plans and Vegantune are not authorised by the factory to undertake mods to a Noble, he's correct. Trevor's not judging the standard of either company's work, he's merely saying that Noble cannot vouch for its quality because we haven't tested it. And that also means Noble cannot guarantee the longevity of any component likely to be affected by an increase in power.
Please note that Trevor Jasper and Roush work closely with the factory on engine development. Their pedigree in this field is unsurpassed, in our opinion.
For the record, we have no current plans to launch a power upgrade for the M400 model.
Simon Hucknall
Press Officer
Noble Automotive Ltd.
Therefore, when Trevor of Roush Technologies states that Plans and Vegantune are not authorised by the factory to undertake mods to a Noble, he's correct. Trevor's not judging the standard of either company's work, he's merely saying that Noble cannot vouch for its quality because we haven't tested it. And that also means Noble cannot guarantee the longevity of any component likely to be affected by an increase in power.
Please note that Trevor Jasper and Roush work closely with the factory on engine development. Their pedigree in this field is unsurpassed, in our opinion.
For the record, we have no current plans to launch a power upgrade for the M400 model.
Simon Hucknall
Press Officer
Noble Automotive Ltd.
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