AGAIN??!! Father faces jail for killing a burglar
Discussion
www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=692633&in_review_text_id=665556
I think any number of us could go the same way if we came face to face with an armed burglar in the night.. I know I'd pull no blows.... I also know a decent place to dump the body though
What the hell is wrong with this country???
I guess the moral of the story is to use a cudgel (or say a lump hammer) rather than a knife...
So, to sum up: Roger Williams is dead - Good Job!!!
quote:It's a fcuking disgrace and nothing less.
A father of two faced jail at the Old Bailey today for killing an armed burglar he feared was endangering his children in the family home.
Barry-Lee Hastings, 25, stabbed career criminal Roger Williams 12 times in the back and the back of the head after the intruder charged at him with a crowbar.
Hastings was cleared of murder but found guilty of manslaughter on a 10-2 majority.
He was refused bail by Judge Brian Barker who remanded him to Belmarsh maximum security prison pending sentence on 4 October. As he was led to the cells he told his sobbing wife Nicola: "Tell the kids I love them to bits."
Williams, 35, had a record of burglaries dating back to 1983 as well as violence.
Hastings told the jury he had armed himself with a kitchen knife after finding the front door of the Tottenham flat broken down.
In the dark he thought the burglar was about to attack him with a machete and had struck out in selfdefence.
The jury's verdict echoes the fate of Norfolk farmer Tony Martin who was convicted of murder for shooting an unarmed teenage burglar. Martin's conviction was reduced on appeal to manslaughter.
Gas engineer Hastings, of Wood Green, who has a conviction for burglary, is separated from his wife the court heard.
Outside court a weeping Nicola Hastings said: "It's wrong, there is no justice."
I think any number of us could go the same way if we came face to face with an armed burglar in the night.. I know I'd pull no blows.... I also know a decent place to dump the body though
What the hell is wrong with this country???
I guess the moral of the story is to use a cudgel (or say a lump hammer) rather than a knife...
So, to sum up: Roger Williams is dead - Good Job!!!
Barry-Lee Hastings, 25, stabbed career criminal Roger Williams 12 times in the back and the back of the head after the intruder charged at him with a crowbar.
Hastings was cleared of murder but found guilty of manslaughter on a 10-2 majority.
Williams, 35, had a record of burglaries dating back to 1983 as well as violence.
Hastings told the jury he had armed himself with a kitchen knife after finding the front door of the Tottenham flat broken down.
In the dark he thought the burglar was about to attack him with a machete and had struck out in selfdefence.
What and stabbed him 12 times?
I agree, what happened to an Englishmans home is his castle ? If you can't defend your own family in your own home from some low life thieving scumbag what is the world coming to. This country is going down the pan and no-one seems to be interested about stopping it.
The moral of the story is, if someone breaks in to your place, make sure you dispose of the body, whatever you do don't call the old Bill and tell them you were defending your property/wife/bird/kids because you'll go down for it.
Interestingly enough though, the guy who has gone down also has some previous - "Gas engineer Hastings, of Wood Green, who has a conviction for burglary,".
2 birds with 1 stone ?
The moral of the story is, if someone breaks in to your place, make sure you dispose of the body, whatever you do don't call the old Bill and tell them you were defending your property/wife/bird/kids because you'll go down for it.
Interestingly enough though, the guy who has gone down also has some previous - "Gas engineer Hastings, of Wood Green, who has a conviction for burglary,".
2 birds with 1 stone ?
For me the problem isn't that he stabbed him, or how many times - it's that he was stabbed 12 times in the back, which hardly suggests he was being threatened at the time.
Mind you, given that I know absolutely nothing about the story I'm quite happy to be torn to shreds for the above statement!
I can quite understand why someone would want to defend themselves though, and if he'd stabbed him in the front and the chap had died I'd expect him to have got away with it.
Dan
Mind you, given that I know absolutely nothing about the story I'm quite happy to be torn to shreds for the above statement!
I can quite understand why someone would want to defend themselves though, and if he'd stabbed him in the front and the chap had died I'd expect him to have got away with it. Dan
quote:
For me the problem isn't that he stabbed him, or how many times - it's that he was stabbed 12 times in the back, which hardly suggests he was being threatened at the time.
Mind you, given that I know absolutely nothing about the story I'm quite happy to be torn to shreds for the above statement!
Dan
Im in agreement with you!
Self defence and reasonable force are pretty much the same thing.
By arming himself with a knife he partly set out to defend himself but also set out to cause injury.
If he had stabbed him once he would possibly have got away with self defence - 12 times though, how can he honestly claim that he was defending himself?
Shocking I reckon.
I personally feel that the fact that he stabbed him 12 times is neither here nor there. If this fella had the belief that him or is family were going to hurt by an intruder brandishing anything from a baguette to a bread knife then reasonable force is dropping the sonofabitch right there and then, I believe Mr Bush calls it a 'Preemptive Strike'.
Matt.
I personally feel that the fact that he stabbed him 12 times is neither here nor there. If this fella had the belief that him or is family were going to hurt by an intruder brandishing anything from a baguette to a bread knife then reasonable force is dropping the sonofabitch right there and then, I believe Mr Bush calls it a 'Preemptive Strike'.
Matt.
quote:
If he had stabbed him once he would possibly have got away with self defence - 12 times though, how can he honestly claim that he was defending himself?
perhaps he suffers from St Vitus Dance, in which case he probably only intended to stab him once, but couldn't stop once he started. Or perhaps not......
Fair enough, CarZee, but have you read any other reports on this case?
I read in the Telegraph report that Hastings also has a criminal record for burglary and cautions for carrying a knife and causing ABH, so I don't think he's entirely squeeky-clean.
He is also estranged from his wife and kids, although on good terms, and wasn't living at the house - he called round unexpected. He saw evidence of break-in and investigated, took the largest kitchen knife he could find and surprised the burglar. In the resulting fight he stabbed Williams 12 times.
And it turns out the kids weren't even home at the time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2248635.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2224065.stm
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F09%2F04%2Fnstab04.xml
Like so many of these cases (eg. the Leonie Shaw case) its not black & white and clear-cut, unfortunately.
At least he was found not guilty of murder and was "only" found guilty of manslaughter.
I read in the Telegraph report that Hastings also has a criminal record for burglary and cautions for carrying a knife and causing ABH, so I don't think he's entirely squeeky-clean.
He is also estranged from his wife and kids, although on good terms, and wasn't living at the house - he called round unexpected. He saw evidence of break-in and investigated, took the largest kitchen knife he could find and surprised the burglar. In the resulting fight he stabbed Williams 12 times.
And it turns out the kids weren't even home at the time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2248635.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2224065.stm
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F09%2F04%2Fnstab04.xml
Like so many of these cases (eg. the Leonie Shaw case) its not black & white and clear-cut, unfortunately.
At least he was found not guilty of murder and was "only" found guilty of manslaughter.
Can I just add that I was distracted by work (gasp - God forbid) and so my post didn't take into account other people's replies as it was started before those were posted.
Sorry if my reply was therefore a bit out of date inasmuch as it brought up the "stabbed 12 times" and Hasting's own criminal record even though others beat me to it.
Worth noting that he wasn't defending his own house as he didn't live there.
>> Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 10th September 16:20
Sorry if my reply was therefore a bit out of date inasmuch as it brought up the "stabbed 12 times" and Hasting's own criminal record even though others beat me to it.
Worth noting that he wasn't defending his own house as he didn't live there.
>> Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 10th September 16:20
quote:
12 times does sound a bit more than reasonable force -how many times do you need to stab someone in the back of the head to get the desired result??
I don't think the number of times he was stabbed is really relevant, as with enough fear behind me I'd probably keep stabbing until the chap buggered off or stopped moving. Stabbing him in the back does rather suggest he was trying to get away though.
Dan
quote:But think on this - after you've started, you've gotta finish it or be finished. If you stab 1 time too little, then it could be you that ends up dead.
12 times does sound a bit more than reasonable force -how many times do you need to stab someone in the back of the head to get the desired result??
I presume forensics proved that the 12 stabs occurred whilst the father was not himself being physically threatened. What about a threat to the rest of his family? Hard to come to a reasonable judgement without being a juror and privvy to the rest of the case details.
Still don't think the reasonable force rules are particularly fair though. Why should the father, forced into the situation against his will, still sleepy, in the dark, trying to protect his home and family be required to display levels of reasoning that dictate that you can attack back, but only if attacked first. You have to stand there and wait for the criminal to escalate it before you can react, otherwise let them walk away. Don't try and capture them, you might hurt them and go to prison. Don't fight back with equal or greater ferocity, you'll be off to prison. FFS it's not as if the crim was forced into it against his will, they could avoid harm by not breaking in in the first place.
Still don't think the reasonable force rules are particularly fair though. Why should the father, forced into the situation against his will, still sleepy, in the dark, trying to protect his home and family be required to display levels of reasoning that dictate that you can attack back, but only if attacked first. You have to stand there and wait for the criminal to escalate it before you can react, otherwise let them walk away. Don't try and capture them, you might hurt them and go to prison. Don't fight back with equal or greater ferocity, you'll be off to prison. FFS it's not as if the crim was forced into it against his will, they could avoid harm by not breaking in in the first place.
quote:
I read in the Telegraph report that Hastings also has a criminal record for burglary and cautions for carrying a knife and causing ABH, so I don't think he's entirely squeeky-clean.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F09%2F04%2Fnstab04.xml
Certainly makes interesting reading - after the discovering that his wife and kids were not at home he went to his mother-in-laws and discovered them there.
He didnt call the Police then!
I think that people should be allowed to defend their property and this scumbag broke into someone elses property so he deserved all he got. I don't care if the other guy has previous convictions, the thief shouldn't have been in someone elses house he wasn't forced to do it, we talk about policemen and firemen taking risks and say that they know the risks before they join so the scumbags that break into other peoples houses know the risk that they will get the sh1t kicked out of them by the house owner. Soon we will be in a country where a criminal will ring your doorbell and walk straight past you when you open the door because if you try and stop them then you will be locked up! The criminal then has a supermarket sweep until the plod arrive!
To be honest if I want something doing quickly the police are the last people I'd call:
1 I once saw a car near us being stolen as I arrived home at 2.00am. Ran in and called the police. 2 and a half hours later the police rolled up, gave me a bollocking for not waiting up for them, then asked me which way I saw the thieves go.
2 Arrived at work one morning to find thieves (probably different ones) had broken in through the roof. Called police. They arrived that afternoon, surprised that because of the rain we'd had the roof fixed by builders who'd turned up 20 minutes after our phone call (made immediatly after calling the fuzz).
Can't blame the guy for stabbing twelve times. What's he supposed to do? Ask the other chap if he want's a turn now, to keep things fair? A crow-bar might not be the same as a machete, but I wouldn't want to be hit by one.
1 I once saw a car near us being stolen as I arrived home at 2.00am. Ran in and called the police. 2 and a half hours later the police rolled up, gave me a bollocking for not waiting up for them, then asked me which way I saw the thieves go.
2 Arrived at work one morning to find thieves (probably different ones) had broken in through the roof. Called police. They arrived that afternoon, surprised that because of the rain we'd had the roof fixed by builders who'd turned up 20 minutes after our phone call (made immediatly after calling the fuzz).
Can't blame the guy for stabbing twelve times. What's he supposed to do? Ask the other chap if he want's a turn now, to keep things fair? A crow-bar might not be the same as a machete, but I wouldn't want to be hit by one.
Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff