Road works traffic lights
Discussion
Driving along a country road, long straight, no junctions near. Come across some roadworks, very short closure of one lane, maybe 30 metres? Lights on red. Nobody else behind or coming towards me. No one working in the area, deserted.
My wife says can you not just go through on red? I wondered then, do roadwork traffic lights have the same laws and penalties as fixed ones on say a junction?
As it happened the lights changed and we drove through anyway, maybe a sensor on a delay?
My wife says can you not just go through on red? I wondered then, do roadwork traffic lights have the same laws and penalties as fixed ones on say a junction?
As it happened the lights changed and we drove through anyway, maybe a sensor on a delay?
Let me google that for you...
From the same question asked on ph in 2010:
Here we go.......
The offence of contravening a red light signal is contained in s. 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. Regulation 10 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 specifies which signs come within the ambit of s. 36. One of these signs is "(g)the red light signal when displayed by the light signals prescribed by regulation 33 or by regulation 35".
Reg 33 provides for fixed traffic lights. Reg 35 provides for "Portable light signals for the control of vehicular traffic". So as long as they comply with the requirements of Reg 35 they are enforceable under s. 36. Penalty is a fine and obligatory endorsement/optional disqualification.
and...
The 1994 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions gave portable temporary lights at road works and temporary road traffic control schemes equal validity with permanent lights and signs.
From the same question asked on ph in 2010:
Here we go.......
The offence of contravening a red light signal is contained in s. 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. Regulation 10 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 specifies which signs come within the ambit of s. 36. One of these signs is "(g)the red light signal when displayed by the light signals prescribed by regulation 33 or by regulation 35".
Reg 33 provides for fixed traffic lights. Reg 35 provides for "Portable light signals for the control of vehicular traffic". So as long as they comply with the requirements of Reg 35 they are enforceable under s. 36. Penalty is a fine and obligatory endorsement/optional disqualification.
and...
The 1994 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions gave portable temporary lights at road works and temporary road traffic control schemes equal validity with permanent lights and signs.
Do the road works have to be ‘official ‘ roadworks?
I.e they have had a permit from the local authority to have temporary lights or can they just stick up lights as and where they want?
I’m thinking if I had a hedge that needed cutting on a busy road could I put up lights? (Not that I have either a hedge or a busy road but it’s funny how the mind wanders)
MaisiesDad said:
As far as I am aware they have to have a stop line on the road surface OR a sign saying when red light shows stop here. If it’s just a red light with no road markings / signage then no stop line enforceable in law so yes you could drive through.
None of that is correct
An odd situation recently (this last week).
Very short notice temporary lights went up for some repair or other.
I was driving up hill toward them, and no lights were showing on the uphill set. I "proceeded with caution" as I could see the queue coming downhill was stopped.
As I'm driving past said queue I notice, in my mirror, that the downhill set are indeed displaying a red light. But I also notice that the queue is very long, and that strikes me as odd because traffic is pretty balanced in both directions as a rule.
Anyway, I go off to drop a watch off for repair, have a bite to eat, and generally dawdle about a bit. Then I drive home.
As I approach a quite significant queue, and join it (for some time) it becomes apparent that the downhill set of lights is still stuck on red, and the uphill set is still completely blank.
People are getting impatient, and uphill traffic is clearly also unsure as there is a lot of hesitation from drivers coming up hill. Eventually a car pulls up alongside the first car in the queue and appears to explain that there is no light for uphill traffic. Whereupon the first bunch of cars drives through when there's a gap in uphill traffic. Then we all stop again.
Repeat the "hesitant uphill traffic, wait at the 'permanent' red downhill traffic" situation again. Right up until some cars begin going around cars ahead of them, and on through the red light when there are gaps.
This went on for several minutes, and only once was there a conflict with uphill traffic, when one of those drivers coming up was "less than hesitant" in his Mitsubishi crew-cab. I soon cleared the works too, and I (cautiously!) ignored the red light and checked the uphill set of signals in my mirror as I passed them. Sure enough they were blank still.
So some further questions related to roadworks temporary lights...
If they aren't working correctly and drivers negotiate them safely, is the offence still committed?
If they aren't set up or maintained properly, is the utility company or their traffic management sub contractor guilty of any offence?
(I'm thinking 'obstructing a highway' or similar here). Not 'baying for blood' on the issue either, just wondering where the law stands on people actually thinking for themselves and safely working around the issues created by such a technical fault.
Oh, and I'm quite prepared for a lynch mob on this one, but as a cyclist I'm frequently faced with the situation of temporary lights not recognising my approach. No problem when there is a decent flow of traffic, but a pain in the 'arris when in areas where traffic is very light. First time through a set of such temp lights I'll wait a reasonable time. But if it's clear that the light sensors don't "see" me, then I have few options...
1. Wait for a car to turn up. But how long? 5 minutes? 10? Half an hour? (And yes, in rural Hampshire on some quiet, narrow roads you might not see a car for an hour or more)
2. Find an alternative route. Again though, how far is it reasonable to expect me to detour? 2 miles? 5 miles? It could be more than that though, as there are limited options for crossings over, for example, the M3.
3. Grow a set and just ride through the roadworks anyway. After all, if something does come the other way, then I'm small enough to just duck behind the cones anyway. There's usually enough space for that.
Opinions welcome on this last one, although I reserve the right to ignore them, obviously. And for clarity, I'm not talking about routinely bombing on through a set of roadworks at full chat where I can't see the other side, but slowing on approach, checking the traffic situation at the other end, and proceeding through carefully while planning for the (distant) possibility that I may have to make way for traffic what's light was green...
Very short notice temporary lights went up for some repair or other.
I was driving up hill toward them, and no lights were showing on the uphill set. I "proceeded with caution" as I could see the queue coming downhill was stopped.
As I'm driving past said queue I notice, in my mirror, that the downhill set are indeed displaying a red light. But I also notice that the queue is very long, and that strikes me as odd because traffic is pretty balanced in both directions as a rule.
Anyway, I go off to drop a watch off for repair, have a bite to eat, and generally dawdle about a bit. Then I drive home.
As I approach a quite significant queue, and join it (for some time) it becomes apparent that the downhill set of lights is still stuck on red, and the uphill set is still completely blank.
People are getting impatient, and uphill traffic is clearly also unsure as there is a lot of hesitation from drivers coming up hill. Eventually a car pulls up alongside the first car in the queue and appears to explain that there is no light for uphill traffic. Whereupon the first bunch of cars drives through when there's a gap in uphill traffic. Then we all stop again.
Repeat the "hesitant uphill traffic, wait at the 'permanent' red downhill traffic" situation again. Right up until some cars begin going around cars ahead of them, and on through the red light when there are gaps.
This went on for several minutes, and only once was there a conflict with uphill traffic, when one of those drivers coming up was "less than hesitant" in his Mitsubishi crew-cab. I soon cleared the works too, and I (cautiously!) ignored the red light and checked the uphill set of signals in my mirror as I passed them. Sure enough they were blank still.
So some further questions related to roadworks temporary lights...
If they aren't working correctly and drivers negotiate them safely, is the offence still committed?
If they aren't set up or maintained properly, is the utility company or their traffic management sub contractor guilty of any offence?
(I'm thinking 'obstructing a highway' or similar here). Not 'baying for blood' on the issue either, just wondering where the law stands on people actually thinking for themselves and safely working around the issues created by such a technical fault.
Oh, and I'm quite prepared for a lynch mob on this one, but as a cyclist I'm frequently faced with the situation of temporary lights not recognising my approach. No problem when there is a decent flow of traffic, but a pain in the 'arris when in areas where traffic is very light. First time through a set of such temp lights I'll wait a reasonable time. But if it's clear that the light sensors don't "see" me, then I have few options...
1. Wait for a car to turn up. But how long? 5 minutes? 10? Half an hour? (And yes, in rural Hampshire on some quiet, narrow roads you might not see a car for an hour or more)
2. Find an alternative route. Again though, how far is it reasonable to expect me to detour? 2 miles? 5 miles? It could be more than that though, as there are limited options for crossings over, for example, the M3.
3. Grow a set and just ride through the roadworks anyway. After all, if something does come the other way, then I'm small enough to just duck behind the cones anyway. There's usually enough space for that.
Opinions welcome on this last one, although I reserve the right to ignore them, obviously. And for clarity, I'm not talking about routinely bombing on through a set of roadworks at full chat where I can't see the other side, but slowing on approach, checking the traffic situation at the other end, and proceeding through carefully while planning for the (distant) possibility that I may have to make way for traffic what's light was green...
MaisiesDad said:
Stout99 said:
None of that is correct
ExplainTraffic Signs Regs and General Directions 2016 said:
Schedule 14, Part 1
30. Meaning of 'stop line'
(3) Where there is no stop line or the stop line is not visible, references to “stop line” are—
(a) in a case where a sign provided for at item 58, 59 or 60 of the Part 2 sign table is placed, to be treated as references to that sign; and
(b) in any other case, to be treated as references to the post or other structure on which the primary signals (within the meaning of paragraph 31) are mounted.
30. Meaning of 'stop line'
(3) Where there is no stop line or the stop line is not visible, references to “stop line” are—
(a) in a case where a sign provided for at item 58, 59 or 60 of the Part 2 sign table is placed, to be treated as references to that sign; and
(b) in any other case, to be treated as references to the post or other structure on which the primary signals (within the meaning of paragraph 31) are mounted.
brrapp said:
If I come across a set at 3am and there's no one about, I'll happily ignore them. If a tree falls in the forest...
Don't really care about the legality if there's no one there to see.
That’s what I did, early in the morning and nobody about or so I thought. In fact a motorcycle policeman was out of sight on the other side just waiting for someone to go through on red.Don't really care about the legality if there's no one there to see.
rongagin said:
Driving along a country road, long straight, no junctions near. Come across some roadworks, very short closure of one lane, maybe 30 metres? Lights on red. Nobody else behind or coming towards me. No one working in the area, deserted.
My wife says can you not just go through on red? I wondered then, do roadwork traffic lights have the same laws and penalties as fixed ones on say a junction?
As it happened the lights changed and we drove through anyway, maybe a sensor on a delay?
and you are allowed to drive on the roads? is your wife a driver too? My wife says can you not just go through on red? I wondered then, do roadwork traffic lights have the same laws and penalties as fixed ones on say a junction?
As it happened the lights changed and we drove through anyway, maybe a sensor on a delay?
FFS.
bet you never heard of aquaplaning either.....
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th December 11:25
yellowjack said:
An odd situation recently (this last week).
Very short notice temporary lights went up for some repair or other.
I was driving up hill toward them, and no lights were showing on the uphill set. I "proceeded with caution" as I could see the queue coming downhill was stopped.
As I'm driving past said queue I notice, in my mirror, that the downhill set are indeed displaying a red light. But I also notice that the queue is very long, and that strikes me as odd because traffic is pretty balanced in both directions as a rule.
Anyway, I go off to drop a watch off for repair, have a bite to eat, and generally dawdle about a bit. Then I drive home.
As I approach a quite significant queue, and join it (for some time) it becomes apparent that the downhill set of lights is still stuck on red, and the uphill set is still completely blank.
People are getting impatient, and uphill traffic is clearly also unsure as there is a lot of hesitation from drivers coming up hill. Eventually a car pulls up alongside the first car in the queue and appears to explain that there is no light for uphill traffic. Whereupon the first bunch of cars drives through when there's a gap in uphill traffic. Then we all stop again.
Repeat the "hesitant uphill traffic, wait at the 'permanent' red downhill traffic" situation again. Right up until some cars begin going around cars ahead of them, and on through the red light when there are gaps.
This went on for several minutes, and only once was there a conflict with uphill traffic, when one of those drivers coming up was "less than hesitant" in his Mitsubishi crew-cab. I soon cleared the works too, and I (cautiously!) ignored the red light and checked the uphill set of signals in my mirror as I passed them. Sure enough they were blank still.
So some further questions related to roadworks temporary lights...
If they aren't working correctly and drivers negotiate them safely, is the offence still committed?
If they aren't set up or maintained properly, is the utility company or their traffic management sub contractor guilty of any offence?
(I'm thinking 'obstructing a highway' or similar here). Not 'baying for blood' on the issue either, just wondering where the law stands on people actually thinking for themselves and safely working around the issues created by such a technical fault.
Oh, and I'm quite prepared for a lynch mob on this one, but as a cyclist I'm frequently faced with the situation of temporary lights not recognising my approach. No problem when there is a decent flow of traffic, but a pain in the 'arris when in areas where traffic is very light. First time through a set of such temp lights I'll wait a reasonable time. But if it's clear that the light sensors don't "see" me, then I have few options...
1. Wait for a car to turn up. But how long? 5 minutes? 10? Half an hour? (And yes, in rural Hampshire on some quiet, narrow roads you might not see a car for an hour or more)
2. Find an alternative route. Again though, how far is it reasonable to expect me to detour? 2 miles? 5 miles? It could be more than that though, as there are limited options for crossings over, for example, the M3.
3. Grow a set and just ride through the roadworks anyway. After all, if something does come the other way, then I'm small enough to just duck behind the cones anyway. There's usually enough space for that.
Opinions welcome on this last one, although I reserve the right to ignore them, obviously. And for clarity, I'm not talking about routinely bombing on through a set of roadworks at full chat where I can't see the other side, but slowing on approach, checking the traffic situation at the other end, and proceeding through carefully while planning for the (distant) possibility that I may have to make way for traffic what's light was green...
I’m not sure it’s such an odd situation. I’ve experienced a few occasions with lights that aren’t working properly.Very short notice temporary lights went up for some repair or other.
I was driving up hill toward them, and no lights were showing on the uphill set. I "proceeded with caution" as I could see the queue coming downhill was stopped.
As I'm driving past said queue I notice, in my mirror, that the downhill set are indeed displaying a red light. But I also notice that the queue is very long, and that strikes me as odd because traffic is pretty balanced in both directions as a rule.
Anyway, I go off to drop a watch off for repair, have a bite to eat, and generally dawdle about a bit. Then I drive home.
As I approach a quite significant queue, and join it (for some time) it becomes apparent that the downhill set of lights is still stuck on red, and the uphill set is still completely blank.
People are getting impatient, and uphill traffic is clearly also unsure as there is a lot of hesitation from drivers coming up hill. Eventually a car pulls up alongside the first car in the queue and appears to explain that there is no light for uphill traffic. Whereupon the first bunch of cars drives through when there's a gap in uphill traffic. Then we all stop again.
Repeat the "hesitant uphill traffic, wait at the 'permanent' red downhill traffic" situation again. Right up until some cars begin going around cars ahead of them, and on through the red light when there are gaps.
This went on for several minutes, and only once was there a conflict with uphill traffic, when one of those drivers coming up was "less than hesitant" in his Mitsubishi crew-cab. I soon cleared the works too, and I (cautiously!) ignored the red light and checked the uphill set of signals in my mirror as I passed them. Sure enough they were blank still.
So some further questions related to roadworks temporary lights...
If they aren't working correctly and drivers negotiate them safely, is the offence still committed?
If they aren't set up or maintained properly, is the utility company or their traffic management sub contractor guilty of any offence?
(I'm thinking 'obstructing a highway' or similar here). Not 'baying for blood' on the issue either, just wondering where the law stands on people actually thinking for themselves and safely working around the issues created by such a technical fault.
Oh, and I'm quite prepared for a lynch mob on this one, but as a cyclist I'm frequently faced with the situation of temporary lights not recognising my approach. No problem when there is a decent flow of traffic, but a pain in the 'arris when in areas where traffic is very light. First time through a set of such temp lights I'll wait a reasonable time. But if it's clear that the light sensors don't "see" me, then I have few options...
1. Wait for a car to turn up. But how long? 5 minutes? 10? Half an hour? (And yes, in rural Hampshire on some quiet, narrow roads you might not see a car for an hour or more)
2. Find an alternative route. Again though, how far is it reasonable to expect me to detour? 2 miles? 5 miles? It could be more than that though, as there are limited options for crossings over, for example, the M3.
3. Grow a set and just ride through the roadworks anyway. After all, if something does come the other way, then I'm small enough to just duck behind the cones anyway. There's usually enough space for that.
Opinions welcome on this last one, although I reserve the right to ignore them, obviously. And for clarity, I'm not talking about routinely bombing on through a set of roadworks at full chat where I can't see the other side, but slowing on approach, checking the traffic situation at the other end, and proceeding through carefully while planning for the (distant) possibility that I may have to make way for traffic what's light was green...
Permantly stuck red one way, green the other. Changing back and forth with no delays, giving no time for traffic to move. One way changing the other stuck on red.
On more than one occasion I, and many others, have gone through the faulty lights on red or otherwise, if it’s appeared safe to do so. If it’s not appeared safe to do so, maybe can’t see other end of roadworks, I’ve turned around and by passed.
I’ve always assumed that they don’t meet the requirements for temporary lights if they’re not working properly.
REALIST123 said:
yellowjack said:
An odd situation recently (this last week).
Very short notice temporary lights went up for some repair or other.
I was driving up hill toward them, and no lights were showing on the uphill set. I "proceeded with caution" as I could see the queue coming downhill was stopped.
As I'm driving past said queue I notice, in my mirror, that the downhill set are indeed displaying a red light. But I also notice that the queue is very long, and that strikes me as odd because traffic is pretty balanced in both directions as a rule.
Anyway, I go off to drop a watch off for repair, have a bite to eat, and generally dawdle about a bit. Then I drive home.
As I approach a quite significant queue, and join it (for some time) it becomes apparent that the downhill set of lights is still stuck on red, and the uphill set is still completely blank.
People are getting impatient, and uphill traffic is clearly also unsure as there is a lot of hesitation from drivers coming up hill. Eventually a car pulls up alongside the first car in the queue and appears to explain that there is no light for uphill traffic. Whereupon the first bunch of cars drives through when there's a gap in uphill traffic. Then we all stop again.
Repeat the "hesitant uphill traffic, wait at the 'permanent' red downhill traffic" situation again. Right up until some cars begin going around cars ahead of them, and on through the red light when there are gaps.
This went on for several minutes, and only once was there a conflict with uphill traffic, when one of those drivers coming up was "less than hesitant" in his Mitsubishi crew-cab. I soon cleared the works too, and I (cautiously!) ignored the red light and checked the uphill set of signals in my mirror as I passed them. Sure enough they were blank still.
So some further questions related to roadworks temporary lights...
If they aren't working correctly and drivers negotiate them safely, is the offence still committed?
If they aren't set up or maintained properly, is the utility company or their traffic management sub contractor guilty of any offence?
(I'm thinking 'obstructing a highway' or similar here). Not 'baying for blood' on the issue either, just wondering where the law stands on people actually thinking for themselves and safely working around the issues created by such a technical fault.
Oh, and I'm quite prepared for a lynch mob on this one, but as a cyclist I'm frequently faced with the situation of temporary lights not recognising my approach. No problem when there is a decent flow of traffic, but a pain in the 'arris when in areas where traffic is very light. First time through a set of such temp lights I'll wait a reasonable time. But if it's clear that the light sensors don't "see" me, then I have few options...
1. Wait for a car to turn up. But how long? 5 minutes? 10? Half an hour? (And yes, in rural Hampshire on some quiet, narrow roads you might not see a car for an hour or more)
2. Find an alternative route. Again though, how far is it reasonable to expect me to detour? 2 miles? 5 miles? It could be more than that though, as there are limited options for crossings over, for example, the M3.
3. Grow a set and just ride through the roadworks anyway. After all, if something does come the other way, then I'm small enough to just duck behind the cones anyway. There's usually enough space for that.
Opinions welcome on this last one, although I reserve the right to ignore them, obviously. And for clarity, I'm not talking about routinely bombing on through a set of roadworks at full chat where I can't see the other side, but slowing on approach, checking the traffic situation at the other end, and proceeding through carefully while planning for the (distant) possibility that I may have to make way for traffic what's light was green...
I’m not sure it’s such an odd situation. I’ve experienced a few occasions with lights that aren’t working properly.Very short notice temporary lights went up for some repair or other.
I was driving up hill toward them, and no lights were showing on the uphill set. I "proceeded with caution" as I could see the queue coming downhill was stopped.
As I'm driving past said queue I notice, in my mirror, that the downhill set are indeed displaying a red light. But I also notice that the queue is very long, and that strikes me as odd because traffic is pretty balanced in both directions as a rule.
Anyway, I go off to drop a watch off for repair, have a bite to eat, and generally dawdle about a bit. Then I drive home.
As I approach a quite significant queue, and join it (for some time) it becomes apparent that the downhill set of lights is still stuck on red, and the uphill set is still completely blank.
People are getting impatient, and uphill traffic is clearly also unsure as there is a lot of hesitation from drivers coming up hill. Eventually a car pulls up alongside the first car in the queue and appears to explain that there is no light for uphill traffic. Whereupon the first bunch of cars drives through when there's a gap in uphill traffic. Then we all stop again.
Repeat the "hesitant uphill traffic, wait at the 'permanent' red downhill traffic" situation again. Right up until some cars begin going around cars ahead of them, and on through the red light when there are gaps.
This went on for several minutes, and only once was there a conflict with uphill traffic, when one of those drivers coming up was "less than hesitant" in his Mitsubishi crew-cab. I soon cleared the works too, and I (cautiously!) ignored the red light and checked the uphill set of signals in my mirror as I passed them. Sure enough they were blank still.
So some further questions related to roadworks temporary lights...
If they aren't working correctly and drivers negotiate them safely, is the offence still committed?
If they aren't set up or maintained properly, is the utility company or their traffic management sub contractor guilty of any offence?
(I'm thinking 'obstructing a highway' or similar here). Not 'baying for blood' on the issue either, just wondering where the law stands on people actually thinking for themselves and safely working around the issues created by such a technical fault.
Oh, and I'm quite prepared for a lynch mob on this one, but as a cyclist I'm frequently faced with the situation of temporary lights not recognising my approach. No problem when there is a decent flow of traffic, but a pain in the 'arris when in areas where traffic is very light. First time through a set of such temp lights I'll wait a reasonable time. But if it's clear that the light sensors don't "see" me, then I have few options...
1. Wait for a car to turn up. But how long? 5 minutes? 10? Half an hour? (And yes, in rural Hampshire on some quiet, narrow roads you might not see a car for an hour or more)
2. Find an alternative route. Again though, how far is it reasonable to expect me to detour? 2 miles? 5 miles? It could be more than that though, as there are limited options for crossings over, for example, the M3.
3. Grow a set and just ride through the roadworks anyway. After all, if something does come the other way, then I'm small enough to just duck behind the cones anyway. There's usually enough space for that.
Opinions welcome on this last one, although I reserve the right to ignore them, obviously. And for clarity, I'm not talking about routinely bombing on through a set of roadworks at full chat where I can't see the other side, but slowing on approach, checking the traffic situation at the other end, and proceeding through carefully while planning for the (distant) possibility that I may have to make way for traffic what's light was green...
Permantly stuck red one way, green the other. Changing back and forth with no delays, giving no time for traffic to move. One way changing the other stuck on red.
On more than one occasion I, and many others, have gone through the faulty lights on red or otherwise, if it’s appeared safe to do so. If it’s not appeared safe to do so, maybe can’t see other end of roadworks, I’ve turned around and by passed.
I’ve always assumed that they don’t meet the requirements for temporary lights if they’re not working properly.
Where it gets messy is that the legislation does not cover timing, so in the case of traffic lights that are simply stuck, or cycling in a way that prevents effective control of traffic then it would be on you to demonstrate that it was clearly apparent that the lights were not working properly and it was a reasonable course of action to treat the junction / situation as uncontrolled by proceeding with caution. In my opinion in the case described by yellowjack it should be easier to demonstrate that the lights were not working correctly, ie one set completely out, as opposed to one where all lights lit but simply just not cycling through the prescribed sequence.
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