Appealing a condition on granted planning permission
Discussion
Hope someone on here can help!
Put simply, I have planning permission granted (2 months ago) for a small out-of-town sports centre.
One of the conditions is that I MUST have road signage up before I can open to the public.
While I know the signage would be slightly beneficial to me (permanent but un-branded advertising), it will have zero benefit to road traffic (the site is extremely easy to find) on either navigation or safety grounds, is vastly expensive, and could take months to be put in place.
I want to appeal that single condition on the grounds that it's an unnecessary expense for a startup business and could basically cripple any chances of 10+ jobs being created - I cant afford it before trading, and don't really want it anyway.
So my question is:
If i take that part to appeal, does the rest of my permission remain valid, or would I have to suspend all activities until a decision is made?
Put simply, I have planning permission granted (2 months ago) for a small out-of-town sports centre.
One of the conditions is that I MUST have road signage up before I can open to the public.
While I know the signage would be slightly beneficial to me (permanent but un-branded advertising), it will have zero benefit to road traffic (the site is extremely easy to find) on either navigation or safety grounds, is vastly expensive, and could take months to be put in place.
I want to appeal that single condition on the grounds that it's an unnecessary expense for a startup business and could basically cripple any chances of 10+ jobs being created - I cant afford it before trading, and don't really want it anyway.
So my question is:
If i take that part to appeal, does the rest of my permission remain valid, or would I have to suspend all activities until a decision is made?
I have experience of these type of signs. It will not be vastly expensive in some cases you can fit them to existing sign posts.
Road Signs come under a permitted development type schedule so no planning is needed generally.
If you send me the info I can put you in touch with a company that supplies local authorities and the will give you a budget price.
If you look on the positive side it is fantastic advertising for your venue.
Road Signs come under a permitted development type schedule so no planning is needed generally.
If you send me the info I can put you in touch with a company that supplies local authorities and the will give you a budget price.
If you look on the positive side it is fantastic advertising for your venue.
Birkin1932 said:
I have experience of these type of signs. It will not be vastly expensive in some cases you can fit them to existing sign posts.
Road Signs come under a permitted development type schedule so no planning is needed generally.
If you send me the info I can put you in touch with a company that supplies local authorities and the will give you a budget price.
If you look on the positive side it is fantastic advertising for your venue.
Thank you! Road Signs come under a permitted development type schedule so no planning is needed generally.
If you send me the info I can put you in touch with a company that supplies local authorities and the will give you a budget price.
If you look on the positive side it is fantastic advertising for your venue.
I agree there are definite positives - its just the cost at this point.
I'll PM you a link to the planning details etc :-)
KevinCamaroSS said:
No, this is a different question (based around the same situation)Flat-6 said:
So my question is:
If i take that part to appeal, does the rest of my permission remain valid, or would I have to suspend all activities until a decision is made?
The Condition, as you've described it, is precedent to commencement of trading.If i take that part to appeal, does the rest of my permission remain valid, or would I have to suspend all activities until a decision is made?
The rest of the approval remains valid, so you can progress with other elements of the work (constructing/converting your sports centre), but you can't open it for business unless you have either complied with the condition or had the appeal decided in your favour.
I run a combined Planning and Architectural Design Consultancy - PM me if you require more detailed advice or assistance with the appeal (do NOT, under any circumstances, convince yourself that you can handle an appeal yourself. If you're asking these sorts of questions, you really, really can't).
Thurbs said:
It will probably cost you more to appeal than install a sign.
True enough, though of course you don't necessarily have to go to appeal - it's possible to submit an application to vary or remove a Planning Condition, and this would be the essential precursor to an appeal in any event.The other option is to simply ignore the condition and wait for them to take enforcement action before initiating any process yourself.
Thurbs said:
It will probably cost you more to appeal than install a sign. What sort of quotes are you getting for it?
Actually there is no cost to appeal (unless i pay someone to deal with it).Somewhere between £1500 and £4000 (for 2 small signs) and a 3-6 month wait, in-fact the wait is more important than the cost, I need to be open for spring.
Flat-6 said:
in-fact the wait is more important than the cost, I need to be open for spring.
Then open regardless. Any enforcement would be a long process, and you can decide if/when it is initiated whether you want to comply by installing the signage, or submitting an application (followed by an appeal, if you're so inclined) to vary or remove the Condition. The latter will keep them off your back for several months, on its own.
Have your council not read the government "signing the way" policy to reduce sign clutter
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/signing...
If you don't want the signs and don't need them it might be worth arguing that point.
I have heard suggestions there is no need for any street signs due to the advent of satnavs etc (personally I don't agree I think we need some signage).
What speed road are you talking for the signs to be installed on 30mph or higher ?
What is the council reasoning to instal/add them to planning?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/signing...
If you don't want the signs and don't need them it might be worth arguing that point.
I have heard suggestions there is no need for any street signs due to the advent of satnavs etc (personally I don't agree I think we need some signage).
What speed road are you talking for the signs to be installed on 30mph or higher ?
What is the council reasoning to instal/add them to planning?
Surely it'll just be one sign pointing into your place of business?
The sign you will have to put up will also have to be a prescribed sign from the Traffic Signs Regulartions and General Directions book. It won't say the name of the business, it'll say 'sports centre' or something, maybe a picture if ones suitable.
As someone else has said, the county council highways department will rather you don't put a sign up at all. It's extra maintenance for them and additional sign clutter.
planning make decisions that are stupid at lot of the time. I wouldn't worry about it.
Even if you did want to put a sign up it won't cost much. Here's a company that can make them - http://www.nordis-signs.co.uk/
The sign you will have to put up will also have to be a prescribed sign from the Traffic Signs Regulartions and General Directions book. It won't say the name of the business, it'll say 'sports centre' or something, maybe a picture if ones suitable.
As someone else has said, the county council highways department will rather you don't put a sign up at all. It's extra maintenance for them and additional sign clutter.
planning make decisions that are stupid at lot of the time. I wouldn't worry about it.
Even if you did want to put a sign up it won't cost much. Here's a company that can make them - http://www.nordis-signs.co.uk/
mcg_ said:
Surely it'll just be one sign pointing into your place of business?
The sign you will have to put up will also have to be a prescribed sign from the Traffic Signs Regulartions and General Directions book. It won't say the name of the business, it'll say 'sports centre' or something, maybe a picture if ones suitable.
Correct, ish they want 2 directing people from the adjoining roundabout, it's a 60mph limit. They don't want it to be advertising a specific business name - but as they want me to pay for them, if I move, i'm sure as hell taking them with me!!!!!!!The sign you will have to put up will also have to be a prescribed sign from the Traffic Signs Regulartions and General Directions book. It won't say the name of the business, it'll say 'sports centre' or something, maybe a picture if ones suitable.
Thanks guys, some good help and pointers above, I'll have to make a decision how to proceed, TBH in the back of my mind the "just open anyway" was fairly high up the list.
infact... my planning officer (not the guy who made this request, that was highways) sort of hinted that's what i should do (off the radar on the phone)
mcg_ said:
just a thought if you do go ahead with the signs. Although I really wouldn't bother given what the planning bloke said.
I'm assuming you've got a consultancy to do a section 278 design for your access on to the highway? They should be able to sort the design for the signs out.
No outside consultancy no, luckily the site already has suitable access. I'm assuming you've got a consultancy to do a section 278 design for your access on to the highway? They should be able to sort the design for the signs out.
The Moose said:
I can't see how a business that is going to create 10 jobs is going to not be able to stand a £1,500-£4,000 spend on a few signs.
All of this is funded out of my own pocket, 100%, no bank loans, no partners, nothing. I have poured my entire savings into this.
Its whats known as a "startup business".. you know...
THATS WHY.
I'm out of money - and need to trade before i can fund any of the council's stupid niceties.
It's possible that the guy at Highway's has your mindset.
Edited by Flat-6 on Wednesday 20th December 21:34
Flat-6 said:
The Moose said:
I can't see how a business that is going to create 10 jobs is going to not be able to stand a £1,500-£4,000 spend on a few signs.
All of this is funded out of my own pocket, 100%, no bank loans, no partners, nothing. I have poured my entire savings into this.
Its whats known as a "startup business".. you know...
THATS WHY.
I'm out of money - and need to trade before i can fund any of the council's stupid niceties.
It's possible that the guy at Highway's has your mindset.
Edited by Flat-6 on Wednesday 20th December 21:34
Yes, I'm fully aware of what a startup business is.I wish you the best and hope you don't have any other unexpected expense in the early days...
Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff