911 - Can I Afford One?

[MEames]

Ok so a long story but probably not that uncommon:

A 911 has always been the objective, had pictures on my wall and die-cast toys as a child .etc but I always thought it would be a ‘one day’ thing for long into the future, however with some man maths, at a stretch I could achieve it next year to coincide with turning 30... the question is, can I really afford it?

A little backstory - Currently driving a nice 306 GTi6 as a stopgap (downgraded from an E46 330ci to save for a house deposit a while back) which has been great but I feel it needs to be retired from daily duty’s as it’s getting on now and wants a little light restoration but has served me really well.

I’ve been looking for an E92 330i for nearly 9 months in the £6 - £7k range but the spec I want is very rare and the ones i’ve seen not great.... so my thoughts were to put that money down as a deposit on a £20 - £22k 997 C2S Of which there seem to be enough in the spec I’d like (which is fairly generic: Silver over Black, Manual, No Chrono) around from both private sellers and dealers.

I’ve considered a 996 but they are not massively cheaper now and the looks don’t really do it for me - and the 997.2’s are way out of budget and seemingly much rarer. Considered a Cayman which may be a better car tbh, but it’s not a 911.

I’m not bothered about miles really as I believe it's better to have something that’s been used regularly but kept in good order (80 - 110k is fine), and don’t want a show car but something clean I can use daily for a year or two and then perhaps move onto being a weekend / holiday car once I have a garage to store it in.

I’ve £300 a month available which has previously been used to support my other half during teacher training, and another £250 i’m no longer putting into a house deposit (as we’ve got enough now) In short more than enough on paper... but I expect with a planned house purchase and wedding in the next 18 months not all of that £550 is going to be useable / nor do I want to commit all my spare income.

Personal loans are cheap - I’ve never had finance for a car or indeed anything else before so it’s a bit of a jump for me, but my thoughts were:

£6 - £7k deposit
£15k / 7 years @ approx £205 pcm
Hartech Service Plan @ £105 pcm

So for £350 taxed I think I can run one that I will own outright in the longer term and shouldn’t loose much value (though I hope never to sell)

However I don’t know too much about other typical costs and the often reported IMS / Bore Scoring / Crank Bearing issues these M97 engines have.

I can accept the engine will need to be dropped and rebuilt someday but would like to get a few years in to soften the blow. How much is the Hartech maintanance plan going to help here? I can do most stuff myself and work in the automotive industry, albeit commercials.

Alternatively I can look for a rebuilt car - there is a tip on eBay no more expensive than normal and potentially as safe a bet as possible, I guess finding one in the right spec is going to be hard but they must exist in increasing numbers.

Also - are prices likely to change up or down in the next few years as they age / blow up / get above the magic 100k? / 992’s released and 991’s start to filter in.

All thoughts and comments much appreciated, perhaps I need to just take some brave pills and go for it.

Cheers

Matt

[jonny996]

I will start of by saying I strongly believe Family & homes come first but it sounds like you have those covered, so I would say yes & I would shave £170 off your figure, only borrow £10k & get a sorted 996, read up on knowledge, here is a great starting point. And start looking for car with work done, get to know a good Indy. Don’t compromise with cayman, good car but will definitely go when children come along, 996 can stay

[MEames]

Thanks - originally I started with an idea for a £12k 996 and think they are great cars (I particularly like that you can get a narrow body C4) but prices are rising and bringing them close to the 997 in some cases.

I’m also concerned a little with space and adjustment as i’m fairly tall / long legged and have been advised the 996 doesnt have reach adjustment on the wheel - is this correct?

[996TT02]

MEames said:

...and have been advised the 996 doesnt have reach adjustment on the wheel - is this correct?

Correct. Only up/down (and round and round )

[jackliebling]

One piece of advice, from experience, get the mortgage sorted and the house bought before you take on any car loans. The debt will affect your mortgagability more than you think. The banks go through your finances with a fine toothed comb, even looking at coffee you buy every day...

If this is patronising please ignore, just trying to be helpful.

[Esceptico]

There is a 997 buying guide in this month’s Evo. They strongly suggest having a contingency pot (or good warranty). 911s not cheap to repair and 996/997s have had engine problems (perhaps overblown but still possible). Personally I wouldn’t be happy borrowing money to finance one. Keep the 306 and keep saving. But then I am older and more sensible. When I was younger I did borrow to buy old cars but got lucky in that I never had a major bil (apart from the depreciation).

[jakesmith]

jackliebling said:

One piece of advice, from experience, get the mortgage sorted and the house bought before you take on any car loans. The debt will affect your mortgagability more than you think. The banks go through your finances with a fine toothed comb, even looking at coffee you buy every day...

If this is patronising please ignore, just trying to be helpful.

This +1 sort the mortgage out 1st they are very intrusive now
996 / 997 the Hartech plan if you live near enough is a very good thing but I believe you still have to pay for parts
You need to allow for another £500-£1k maybe a year easily if you're doing any milage or buying an older car, for tyres, brakes, consumables, parts that break / wear out
Would an engine rebuild, that even with Hartech, might cost £4k, put you under water?

[MEames]

Thanks for the feedback. I do get the sensible approach but have had mortgage pressure tests done to £200k with our 15% deposit against and the personal loan wouldn’t impact at all - I wouldn’t be thinking about it otherwise as i’m very cautious financially. Spent the best part of 7 years saving up to get in this position and feel like I may not get the opportunity to get the right Porsche for many years if not now... particularly if prices firm up?

The lack of reach adjust would rule out a 996 for me, I struggle with the 306 on this account so whilst small it’s a key feature I need.

I cover 20 miles a day on B roads so probably 5000 miles commuting - I wouldn’t go much over 8k per annum My OH has a very good golf MkVI as a runaround / economical car which takes the pressure off in some regards.

Eventually this would drop to 3-5k or so once it’s a weekender.... i’d probably supplement it with a cheap Audi A4 Quattro Avant for winter use, lugging mountain bikes, rubbish and eventual children around.

I’m in West / North Yorkshire so close enough to Hartech for the annual check - if I could just cover the short block against failure I can take care of all other things to be fair.

Other option is to keep looking for a nice E92 but it’s effectively only a stepping stone and they are not without maintenance costs.

[Dammit]

996 does have reach adjustment, doesn't have rake. I'm 6'2" and (with a bit of fettling) am very comfortable in mine.

[Heathrow]

You are looking at a gen 1 so somewhere between 2004 and 2007 and a car that is now at least 10 years old now. As well as the known engine issues the regular stuff is pretty pricey too so go in with an open mind wrt ad-hoc repair costs and build in a slush fund into the budget.

By way of illustration, in the last 12 months I've replaced both a window regulator and an indicator stalk (ignoring the self-inflicted upgrade costs!). Neither parts are as cheap as you'd expect, even if you are willing to do the spannering work yourself.

If you are set on a 911 I would recommend the 997.1 3.6 C2 which as well as being a rarer car than the C2S also has appears to have had statistically less of the known engine issues. It's still plenty quick and a nice free revving engine. Test drive a Cayman 987.2 if the engine reliability risk is putting you off, highly recommended too.

Despite the scare stories, they are good cars the 997s and a lot of car for the money at £20-22k, just make sure you do your homework and be prepared to walk away - there are plenty about.

[nickpan]

I’ve had a 996.2 C4 and it was a very nice car and recently migrated to a 993.

I nearly went down the 997 route and spoke to lots of knowledgable people when choosing my next 911. The general feedback I received is that the 997.1 C2 is the best value 911 right now, with improved build quality over the 996s, reduced bore scoring worries relative to the 3.8 lump, and currently trading at rock bottom prices. Very decent looks to boot!

If my budget was £20,000 ish, that’s where my money would go over a C2S.

Look for a car that has had money spent on it recently, even if you have to pay a small premium. The premium you pay should work out less than the cost of you getting all the work done yourself.

[colnagoglyn]

I have had my 2005 997 2S for five years this month. I have kept a very precise record of running costs and can tell you the cost per month to run the car has been £509.
This includes everything from repairs/servicing to petrol, road tax and insurance, tyres, everything.
It doesn't include the cost of buying the car or any non essential items such as winter tyres. I have done 42000 miles in the five years and the car has done almost 86000 miles in total.
If anyone asks me about running cost my answer is this, it might be a twenty grand car today but it still has a seventy five grand cars running costs(even at an Independent dealers).
It doesn't matter how good a car is, when its 12-15 years old it's going to start to cost money. If you want more detail on running costs let me know.
On a final point, I don't begrudge a penny of the money I have spent, I love the car and intend to keep it indefinitely.

[jakesmith]

I've had 3 Porsches, the costs below are just repairs & maintenance / servicing - no insurance, tax, fuel

986 2.5 bought at 10 years old, spent about £3k on running costs over 18 months and maybe 25,000 miles

987 2.7 bought 3 years old, ran for 4 years and 50,000 miles, must have cost about £1k a year, very reliable. Really only brakes and tires + the gear linkage fault that was about £350

997 C4S bought 6 years old ran for 4 years, must have spent about £8k+ on it as it needed a new gearbox, coolant header tank, springs, ignition switch, alternator cables, air con rads, coil packs, battery

And finally my Maserati Granturismo (not relevant I know), has cost me £3800 in the last 14 months. Coolant pipe, 2 tyres, tracking, handbrake shoes, discs and pads all round, and a bumper scuff(!) Eeek.

Just about to buy another Boxster, 987.1S 3.2. Wife thinks I'm mad.

[skinny]

There's still a reasonable gap between similar 996 and 997. You'd get a much nicer 996 for 20k than you would a 997 - and you can still get a decent 996 for 12k at higher miles. Running costs will be similar for routine stuff.

Drive both before you make up your mind if you can - unless it's the looks or interior of the 996 you can't get on with.

The cheapest 911's (99-00 3.4) also happen to have the most reliable engine short of the 997.2 dfi (dual row bearings, decent piston lining etc). And if you can tolerate it, a tip might save you a couple grand.

Lastly if you're looking at a 3.6 or 3.8 with 100k miles, get the bores etc checked with a PPI before signing on the line and if poss get some evidence that the IMS is ok otherwise you could have a 12k grenade waiting to go off.

(Or did what I did and just buy the first one you look at on gut feel without any checks and how for the best - 3 years on, so far so good. '99 3.4, 110k miles)

Edited by skinny on Wednesday 27th December 23:05

[alan718s]

You should really apply for finance once you bought the house. Morgage lender takes into each penny you spend so with a 7 year loan, you will borrow alot less than what you think you will get.

[hoegaardenruls]

jakesmith said:

996 / 997 the Hartech plan if you live near enough is a very good thing but I believe you still have to pay for parts
You need to allow for another £500-£1k maybe a year easily if you're doing any milage or buying an older car, for tyres, brakes, consumables, parts that break / wear out
Would an engine rebuild, that even with Hartech, might cost £4k, put you under water?

And from what I understand, you also have to carry out any rectification work prior to it going on to the Hartech plan, which is understandable, but it also means buy carefully and consider a PPI.

[matjk]

Definitely get the house first, and get your feet under the table , i brought a brand new house thinking it wouldn’t cost much after the purchase then in the first year probably spent £30k on log burner/ new tv / stereo / furniture/ window shutters / new gates / fitted bedrooms etc etc ... your priorities may well change when you own your first property. I’d been saving for years for a big deposit to move to my ‘forever’ house , thinking that when I finally had it I could use the savings money on a dream car , as soon as I got it my priorities changed to getting the mortgage down to zero as quickly.
I was running a lowly 986 2.7 at the time and I would say it was a car where it seemed almost every month it needed something. Be that insurance , tax, service , tyres , water pump , coffin arms , coil springs, expansion tank , nothing horrendous just felt like it was ending .

[MEames]

Thanks for all the feedback, particularly on costings which is very good to know as a gauge, I will try and get the latest issue of EVO - so general thoughts being to either:

A) go for a cheaper 996 - this really is not an option I don’t think, whilst I do like them in isolation a 997 C2S has always been the car i’ve set my heart on owning - regardless of the fact the older and non S cars represent much better value and would be fine for me. I want to keep it long term so anything else would just get me looking to swap a few years down the line... Likewise a Tip isn’t any good for me.

Here is one i’ve seen as an example - nice colour and lots of work done.

I drive an 18 year old (and French) car now so used to fixing things somewhat regularly, not afraid of that and would rather spend the money here than on depreciation against a leased hot hatch as a lot of my friends seem to do. The whole justification comes from owning it long term and making these big bills palatable - need to research the engine side of things more though as a £5-7k bill would be hard to stomach at the moment.

B) Keep saving and get the house sorted first... probably the best idea, I suppose i’d moved plans forwards with the idea to get one when i’m 30 but I can wait a year or two and having a drive / garage and not having to use the car daily would it seem be a better idea perhaps to help protect the investment.

I can still get an E92 and wouldn’t expect to loose more than 30% of the cost in a few years one one... I could work to save to the same level of deposit again and also have a £3-4K repair fund ready.... maybe just putting cash aside per month aside for repairs would be better then the hartech plan... would be great to find a rebuilt car though!

I suppose my other thought was that I don’t want to miss an opportunity whilst they are relatively affordable... whilst they may not depreciate much more of at all, i’m not sure the price will increase much in the next few years?

... and there was me sort of hoping you’d all say ‘great idea - go for it’ Haha!

Cheers

[skinny]

I really don't see them appreciating a huge amount in the next few years so I'd sort the house first and hold on for the car.

And whilst they won't depreciate, you'll still be putting a grand a year into maintenance even DIY.

[Shnozz]

jakesmith said:

This +1 sort the mortgage out 1st they are very intrusive now
996 / 997 the Hartech plan if you live near enough is a very good thing but I believe you still have to pay for parts
You need to allow for another £500-£1k maybe a year easily if you're doing any milage or buying an older car, for tyres, brakes, consumables, parts that break / wear out
Would an engine rebuild, that even with Hartech, might cost £4k, put you under water?

More like £10k - £12k for a rebuild. The Hartech maintenance plan is a no brainier if you are local enough to make it work IMO.