Can you openly carry guns in England?
Discussion
I was driving along in the countryside on my way to a friend’s house when I saw two people cross the road from one field to another. One was carrying black military style shotgun which looked pretty significant (the fore end was as long as the barrel) and the other was holding what I think was an AR-15 style rifle like you see in the movies.
Now I wasn’t overly concerned because my friend had mentioned before that there are hunts and game shooting in the area, and I’ve heard guns go off in the background in the past so I didn’t think much of it and I carried on my journey.
It’s got me wondering now though what the law is in regards to wielding firearms in public, so I did some googling and found this.
What I also found interesting is I couldn’t find any legislation that said you have to cover your firearm, which technically means you can open carry?
The only problem I see with this is a passer-by not knowing any better could call the police saying they’ve seen a man with a gun, would the police then have grounds to arrest the firearms owner for causing alarm harassment and distress?
I'm not a gun owner but the thought of that would put me off carrying a gun even in a gun slip, I wonder how many gun owners have been violently confronted by armed police in such situations.
Now I wasn’t overly concerned because my friend had mentioned before that there are hunts and game shooting in the area, and I’ve heard guns go off in the background in the past so I didn’t think much of it and I carried on my journey.
It’s got me wondering now though what the law is in regards to wielding firearms in public, so I did some googling and found this.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27 said:
19 Carrying firearm in a public place.
A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place
[F76(a)a loaded shot gun,
(b)an air weapon (whether loaded or not),
(c)any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm, or
(d)an imitation firearm.]
The key word there is without reasonable excuse, so assuming the two gentlemen were legitimate certificate holders and they had permission from the land owner to shoot, then they broke no laws by having their firearms momentarily on public property?A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place
[F76(a)a loaded shot gun,
(b)an air weapon (whether loaded or not),
(c)any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm, or
(d)an imitation firearm.]
What I also found interesting is I couldn’t find any legislation that said you have to cover your firearm, which technically means you can open carry?
The only problem I see with this is a passer-by not knowing any better could call the police saying they’ve seen a man with a gun, would the police then have grounds to arrest the firearms owner for causing alarm harassment and distress?
I'm not a gun owner but the thought of that would put me off carrying a gun even in a gun slip, I wonder how many gun owners have been violently confronted by armed police in such situations.
I think you've answered your own question. They were in the countryside, so entirely reasonable they owned land (or had permission to shoot) on one side of the road and the other and were shooting pests. Walking around a shopping centre with one would be entirely different. Also no way of knowing if they were loaded or not (depending on shotgun type).
AR15 is obviously not legal in the UK. So best guess would be .22 calibre, or an airsoft weapon. My guess would be a .22 or similar rifle.
This is the HK416, a .22 calibre version of the AR15:
Perfectly legal to own in the UK.
Response of the police depends on the circumstances. Someone in the sticks with a shotgun isn't likely to get an instead armed police response, maybe a beat bobby would have a poke around. It's the countryside, this sort of stuff happens regularly.
AR15 is obviously not legal in the UK. So best guess would be .22 calibre, or an airsoft weapon. My guess would be a .22 or similar rifle.
This is the HK416, a .22 calibre version of the AR15:
Perfectly legal to own in the UK.
Response of the police depends on the circumstances. Someone in the sticks with a shotgun isn't likely to get an instead armed police response, maybe a beat bobby would have a poke around. It's the countryside, this sort of stuff happens regularly.
Edited by WaferThinHam on Saturday 30th December 12:57
Edited by WaferThinHam on Saturday 30th December 13:01
Lawful authority and reasonable excuse are the key words.
If real guns, do they have a ticket for those guns. If not real guns, no ticket required.
Reasonable excuse - I was crossing the road to get to my other field - is reasonable. I went into the village to get a coffee - not reasonable. Applies to anything that looks like a firearm, even airsoft/paintball. This is sensible, because if armed plod does show up, it is pretty much impossible to tell the difference between real and imitation from 30 yards away.
I can be seen shooting from a public footpath on my land. I’d had the odd divvy phone it in, the first time a nice policeman came round and we had a cup of tea. I don’t think they bother any more.
If real guns, do they have a ticket for those guns. If not real guns, no ticket required.
Reasonable excuse - I was crossing the road to get to my other field - is reasonable. I went into the village to get a coffee - not reasonable. Applies to anything that looks like a firearm, even airsoft/paintball. This is sensible, because if armed plod does show up, it is pretty much impossible to tell the difference between real and imitation from 30 yards away.
I can be seen shooting from a public footpath on my land. I’d had the odd divvy phone it in, the first time a nice policeman came round and we had a cup of tea. I don’t think they bother any more.
rxe said:
Lawful authority and reasonable excuse are the key words.
If real guns, do they have a ticket for those guns. If not real guns, no ticket required.
Reasonable excuse - I was crossing the road to get to my other field - is reasonable. I went into the village to get a coffee - not reasonable. Applies to anything that looks like a firearm, even airsoft/paintball. This is sensible, because if armed plod does show up, it is pretty much impossible to tell the difference between real and imitation from 30 yards away.
I can be seen shooting from a public footpath on my land. I’d had the odd divvy phone it in, the first time a nice policeman came round and we had a cup of tea. I don’t think they bother any more.
Would lawful authority not simple mean being correctly licenced? If real guns, do they have a ticket for those guns. If not real guns, no ticket required.
Reasonable excuse - I was crossing the road to get to my other field - is reasonable. I went into the village to get a coffee - not reasonable. Applies to anything that looks like a firearm, even airsoft/paintball. This is sensible, because if armed plod does show up, it is pretty much impossible to tell the difference between real and imitation from 30 yards away.
I can be seen shooting from a public footpath on my land. I’d had the odd divvy phone it in, the first time a nice policeman came round and we had a cup of tea. I don’t think they bother any more.
Your example about going into the village to get a coffee, why would that not reasonable? You've been shooting, you want to grab a coffee on the way home but you don't want to leave your gun in the car, instead its in a gun slip and you take it with you.
I really don't' think that is unreasonable.
There is no exhaustive, legal definition of “reasonable”; it would depend entirely on the circumstances in the particular case in question.
So your coffee shop trip could indeed be “reasonable, and it would be up to you to convince the police and in turn potentially a court/jury that it was!
There are stated cases concerning “reasonable” excuses to lots of offences included firearms offences: all of those are searchable and become “stated” because they inform on a nuance of that particular legislation.
Even so, that’s not to say with a specific set of circumstances that couldn’t be challenged and a contrary decision made.
So your coffee shop trip could indeed be “reasonable, and it would be up to you to convince the police and in turn potentially a court/jury that it was!
There are stated cases concerning “reasonable” excuses to lots of offences included firearms offences: all of those are searchable and become “stated” because they inform on a nuance of that particular legislation.
Even so, that’s not to say with a specific set of circumstances that couldn’t be challenged and a contrary decision made.
I once walked into the bank with a shotgun in a slip over my shoulder,
on the way to shoot clays,rather than leave it in the back of the car,
they didnt bat an eye,
on shoot days everyone usually crosses the roads and one drive has guns on the road, its a rural area, its expected,
a few years back two of us were standing wating for the transport to come after a drive, the local bus stopped asking "are you getting on?" 2 blokes with shotguns and 3 dogs.
on the way to shoot clays,rather than leave it in the back of the car,
they didnt bat an eye,
on shoot days everyone usually crosses the roads and one drive has guns on the road, its a rural area, its expected,
a few years back two of us were standing wating for the transport to come after a drive, the local bus stopped asking "are you getting on?" 2 blokes with shotguns and 3 dogs.
Gmlgml said:
There is no exhaustive, legal definition of “reasonable”; it would depend entirely on the circumstances in the particular case in question.
So your coffee shop trip could indeed be “reasonable, and it would be up to you to convince the police and in turn potentially a court/jury that it was!
There are stated cases concerning “reasonable” excuses to lots of offences included firearms offences: all of those are searchable and become “stated” because they inform on a nuance of that particular legislation.
Even so, that’s not to say with a specific set of circumstances that couldn’t be challenged and a contrary decision made.
I appreciate what you are saying and without sounding pedantic, the legislation says lawful authority OR reasonable excuse, not AND.So your coffee shop trip could indeed be “reasonable, and it would be up to you to convince the police and in turn potentially a court/jury that it was!
There are stated cases concerning “reasonable” excuses to lots of offences included firearms offences: all of those are searchable and become “stated” because they inform on a nuance of that particular legislation.
Even so, that’s not to say with a specific set of circumstances that couldn’t be challenged and a contrary decision made.
Gmlgml said:
Personally I’d say locked in the boot of the car, out of view, would trump taking it into the coffee shop.
Not sure I agree with that, the gun used in the murder of Jo Cox was out of sight when it was stolen from a car, the owner had left it to go get a cup of tea.BucksFizz said:
...would the police then have grounds to arrest the firearms owner for causing alarm harassment and distress?
I wouldn't be surprised at anything in this day and age. A better solution would be to educate ignorant people about the legal use of shotguns and firearms so they don't get all worked up about nothing.We've had threads on here before about people being scared and not wanting their children to be exposed to a Policeman in a petrol station with a sidearm.
Get over it.
Agree with comments previously; generally I err on the side of caution, gun in slip whilst being transported and I tend not to spend anymore time with it in transit than I have to..... would rather leave it in the boot (maybe take the foreend with me as security) than carry, even in slip, if I have to stop for fuel, food whatever.
Just a point of order - this is incorrect:
(above not from me but from a friend who shoots rifles; me, just clays)
Just a point of order - this is incorrect:
WaferThinHam said:
AR15 is obviously not legal in the UK.
You can have an AR15 provided it is straight-pull (not semi-auto/auto), and alot of target shooters do just that as parts for the AR15 platform are plentiful and (relatively) inexpensive and it's quicker to operate than a standard bolt rifle.(above not from me but from a friend who shoots rifles; me, just clays)
Gmlgml said:
So your coffee shop trip could indeed be “reasonable, and it would be up to you to convince the police and in turn potentially a court/jury that it was!
There are stated cases concerning “reasonable” excuses to lots of offences included firearms offences: all of those are searchable and become “stated” because they inform on a nuance of that particular legislation.
Even so, that’s not to say with a specific set of circumstances that couldn’t be challenged and a contrary decision made.
The problem isn't with the law, it's with the public.There are stated cases concerning “reasonable” excuses to lots of offences included firearms offences: all of those are searchable and become “stated” because they inform on a nuance of that particular legislation.
Even so, that’s not to say with a specific set of circumstances that couldn’t be challenged and a contrary decision made.
You walk into a cafe with a rifle and some startled townie gets all bothersome and feels threatened and next thing you know there's plod at the door making your life very difficult.
Any sensible gun owner would have it showed in the car in a secure box that's in turn secured firmly to the vehicle.
BucksFizz said:
Not sure I agree with that, the gun used in the murder of Jo Cox was out of sight when it was stolen from a car, the owner had left it to go get a cup of tea.
And that’s why “reasonable” isn’t defined; it’s a matter of opinion x context x outcome to determine. Of course the least problematic course of action would be to buy a thermos flask and swerve the coffee shop at all ! Evanivitch said:
The problem isn't with the law, it's with the public.
You walk into a cafe with a rifle and some startled townie gets all bothersome and feels threatened and next thing you know there's plod at the door making your life very difficult.
Man gun ownership sounds like a real ball ache! You can be acting within the law but could still get in trouble if you offend someone. Sounds like another level of intolerance/bigotry. You walk into a cafe with a rifle and some startled townie gets all bothersome and feels threatened and next thing you know there's plod at the door making your life very difficult.
I know one person with a shotgun and he very much keeps the fact to himself, only a few of his friends know including me, he doesn't tell anyone else for fear of people thinking he is weird. All's he does is goes clay shooting every 6 weeks! If my memory recalls when he had a home visit to get his licence the police civilian said if he goes rough shooting and doesn't call 101 in advance, and someone reports him, then he will be hard stopped by "the lads in the ARVs" and they'll probably crash into his car.
A friend of mine had several guns stolen from his car overnight while staying at a UK hotel.
You could argue that's a clear case where it would have been safer to keep them with him in his room overnight, however the hotel had a policy of not allowing guns in their premises so when it went to court, he was cleared. He took all reasonable precautions to secure them in his car, which was alarmed.
The thieves didn't know what they were stealing and dumped them all in a ditch down the road.
If you don't advertise the fact you have guns in your car and you take reasonable precautions then that can be the safest place, but as said it depends on the circumstances.
You could argue that's a clear case where it would have been safer to keep them with him in his room overnight, however the hotel had a policy of not allowing guns in their premises so when it went to court, he was cleared. He took all reasonable precautions to secure them in his car, which was alarmed.
The thieves didn't know what they were stealing and dumped them all in a ditch down the road.
If you don't advertise the fact you have guns in your car and you take reasonable precautions then that can be the safest place, but as said it depends on the circumstances.
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