Parking charge notice - Vehicle Control Services Ltd
Discussion
I have just got a NTK for a parking offensive.
Visitors pay of a private carpark by my girlfriends, free parking but you need it get a daily permit, we're very careful including making sure they don't blow of the dash, but it's hard to say for absolute certain. We both drive the car and don't know who was the driver.
Rediculous thing is I've only just got the thing a day before the 28days are up. I left my house for my parents Friday morning before Christmas as it wasn't there then (14days was the Wednesday) so looking for any advice really.
I believe ignoring it is not an option these days, but there is a reasonable chance they have not complied with PofA? How should I proceed?
Also started a thread here; http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=1178...
Thanks in advance.
Daniel
Visitors pay of a private carpark by my girlfriends, free parking but you need it get a daily permit, we're very careful including making sure they don't blow of the dash, but it's hard to say for absolute certain. We both drive the car and don't know who was the driver.
Rediculous thing is I've only just got the thing a day before the 28days are up. I left my house for my parents Friday morning before Christmas as it wasn't there then (14days was the Wednesday) so looking for any advice really.
I believe ignoring it is not an option these days, but there is a reasonable chance they have not complied with PofA? How should I proceed?
Also started a thread here; http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=1178...
Thanks in advance.
Daniel
The general rule for parking fine queries is:
PistonHeads - Just throw it away and ignore. I did this and nothing ever came of it. I do it all the time, I've binned literally hundreds nothing ever comes of it.
Pepipoo - Post all and every details here and a small minority who actually know what they are talking about will advise accordingly.
PistonHeads - Just throw it away and ignore. I did this and nothing ever came of it. I do it all the time, I've binned literally hundreds nothing ever comes of it.
Pepipoo - Post all and every details here and a small minority who actually know what they are talking about will advise accordingly.
Stoofa said:
PistonHeads - Just throw it away and ignore. I did this and nothing ever came of it. I do it all the time, I've binned literally hundreds nothing ever comes of it.
I thought that since 2012 this changed, and if you ignore it they can come after the keeping. Assuming they comply with PofA, but also unless you challenge them that they do not?D
dhutch said:
Stoofa said:
PistonHeads - Just throw it away and ignore. I did this and nothing ever came of it. I do it all the time, I've binned literally hundreds nothing ever comes of it.
I thought that since 2012 this changed, and if you ignore it they can come after the keeping. Assuming they comply with PofA, but also unless you challenge them that they do not?D
YHPM.
dhutch said:
I thought that since 2012 this changed, and if you ignore it they can come after the keeping. Assuming they comply with PofA, but also unless you challenge them that they do not?
D
DO NOT IGNORE in England and Wales. You can continue to ignore in Scotland and NI.D
Also while many Parking Charge Notices do not comply with PoFA do not assume this will not end up in a court. For the parking companies it’s a lottery, they chase as many as they can as far as they can, to maximise revenue.
Getting ticket over turned will take a bit of time and effort. If you’re not prepared for that then pay it.
The best site is Pepipoo (the MSE thread and ParkingPrankster are also useful) but they can be a bit tough on new posters telling them to read the related threads. That can then be confusing because you need to find a tread which matches your circumstances.
Happy to guide you in the right direction if you want.
First question is can you be more specific on where the PCN relates to.
Is the site residential, if so do you or your GF live there, is it a work site, hotel, shop?
Edited by Mrr T on Wednesday 3rd January 13:08
Hi,
Advice so far is that it must arrive before 14days of the offence, which is the 9th and hence well before it did arrive. Therefore challenge it on that basis.
If it was easy to pay the £60 I might well have done, they are unfair and have created and internationally arduous permit system for no reason, however lift is short and so for £40-60 so be it. However I really don't feel like paying £100 just because the post was slow.
My girlfriend lives in one of the flats, which she owns on a leasehold. I have asked to see the agreement they have but this won't be till tomorrow night at this point.
There is a copy of my PCN on the Pepipoo thread I started , link in the OP for you.
Daniel
Advice so far is that it must arrive before 14days of the offence, which is the 9th and hence well before it did arrive. Therefore challenge it on that basis.
If it was easy to pay the £60 I might well have done, they are unfair and have created and internationally arduous permit system for no reason, however lift is short and so for £40-60 so be it. However I really don't feel like paying £100 just because the post was slow.
My girlfriend lives in one of the flats, which she owns on a leasehold. I have asked to see the agreement they have but this won't be till tomorrow night at this point.
There is a copy of my PCN on the Pepipoo thread I started , link in the OP for you.
Daniel
dhutch said:
Hi,
Advice so far is that it must arrive before 14days of the offence, which is the 9th and hence well before it did arrive. Therefore challenge it on that basis.
If it was easy to pay the £60 I might well have done, they are unfair and have created and internationally arduous permit system for no reason, however lift is short and so for £40-60 so be it. However I really don't feel like paying £100 just because the post was slow.
My girlfriend lives in one of the flats, which she owns on a leasehold. I have asked to see the agreement they have but this won't be till tomorrow night at this point.
There is a copy of my PCN on the Pepipoo thread I started , link in the OP for you.
Daniel
I have looked at the other tread.Advice so far is that it must arrive before 14days of the offence, which is the 9th and hence well before it did arrive. Therefore challenge it on that basis.
If it was easy to pay the £60 I might well have done, they are unfair and have created and internationally arduous permit system for no reason, however lift is short and so for £40-60 so be it. However I really don't feel like paying £100 just because the post was slow.
My girlfriend lives in one of the flats, which she owns on a leasehold. I have asked to see the agreement they have but this won't be till tomorrow night at this point.
There is a copy of my PCN on the Pepipoo thread I started , link in the OP for you.
Daniel
You can certainly appeal on the basis that the PCN was too late for PoFA. You may win but I expect they will just reject the appeal, either because they dispute the date it arrived, or that they are not relying on PoFA but on the assumption the RK was the driver (Elliot V Loake 1982).
The PC is a member of the IPC so it’s not worth bothering with the “independent” (not) appeal service.
Your decision is then to either pay or play. Remembering playing could involve ending up a small claims court. However, there are lots of people around to help if that happens.
You can just wait and see if you get a small claims court call but my advice is to do some work now.
As your post suggests you already know you need to see what the lease agreement(s) say about parking. If your GF is just on a STA you need a copy of that and she also needs to ask the letting agent for a copy of the head lease.
The leases are vital since they govern the rights of the tenants to park. Such rights maybe explicit but may just refer to quiet enjoyment. There is clear case law that any subsequent agreement, for example requiring parking permits, cannot override an earlier agreement, unless all parties agree.
PC should know this but tend to ignore it.
This point is worth investigating now since not only is it an unbeatable defence, but it might be a jackpot moment allowing you to win £500.
Also worth getting are some pictures of any signs and making a plan of the parking, where the parking spots are, and where the signs are.
Fair. What do you put the chances of appear going through, 1:10, 1:100, 1:1000 >
If they issue a small claims court summons, or whatever it would be, is their likely to be a 'pay £100 to make it go away' option?
Would it appear on any record of mine, which might effect employability or a mortgage application?
What is the likely, or worst, outcome if it went to small claims and I lost? What would it cost me, in time and money? I don't have days to spent on this.
I dont think I am going to ignore it. So I think its either; a letter of appeal/complaint based on the 14days, pay the full amount today online, or try and write a cheque for the £60 or something?
We will check the least agreement on the flat my girlfriend owns, however that wont be before end of play today, which is when I have until to pay under their terms.
I know they have one numbered space with the flat which can be used for any car, and some people have a long term permit for the visitors spaces, but they do not despite asking.
My car was parked in the un-numbered visitor bays.
Will take pictures of signs in case they change.
I am not after £500, although I wouldn't say no.
If they issue a small claims court summons, or whatever it would be, is their likely to be a 'pay £100 to make it go away' option?
Would it appear on any record of mine, which might effect employability or a mortgage application?
What is the likely, or worst, outcome if it went to small claims and I lost? What would it cost me, in time and money? I don't have days to spent on this.
I dont think I am going to ignore it. So I think its either; a letter of appeal/complaint based on the 14days, pay the full amount today online, or try and write a cheque for the £60 or something?
We will check the least agreement on the flat my girlfriend owns, however that wont be before end of play today, which is when I have until to pay under their terms.
I know they have one numbered space with the flat which can be used for any car, and some people have a long term permit for the visitors spaces, but they do not despite asking.
My car was parked in the un-numbered visitor bays.
Will take pictures of signs in case they change.
I am not after £500, although I wouldn't say no.
dhutch said:
Fair. What do you put the chances of appear going through, 1:10, 1:100, 1:1000 >
To quote Elvis “less than zero” but I have been wrong.dhutch said:
If they issue a small claims court summons, or whatever it would be, is their likely to be a 'pay £100 to make it go away' option?
They will add fees, they should only add the court fee and a standard charge, but PC have special rules (sic).dhutch said:
Would it appear on any record of mine, which might effect employability or a mortgage application?
Not if you pay on time.dhutch said:
What is the likely, or worst, outcome if it went to small claims and I lost? What would it cost me, in time and money? I don't have days to spent on this.
I would guess another £100 but that’s a guess. Look at the defences on pepipoo they can take a few hours to write. Most likely a couple of hours in court.dhutch said:
I dont think I am going to ignore it. So I think its either; a letter of appeal/complaint based on the 14days, pay the full amount today online, or try and write a cheque for the £60 or something?
Do not ignore.dhutch said:
We will check the least agreement on the flat my girlfriend owns, however that wont be before end of play today, which is when I have until to pay under their terms.
I know they have one numbered space with the flat which can be used for any car, and some people have a long term permit for the visitors spaces, but they do not despite asking.
My car was parked in the un-numbered visitor bays.
Will take pictures of signs in case they change.
Update when you know.I know they have one numbered space with the flat which can be used for any car, and some people have a long term permit for the visitors spaces, but they do not despite asking.
My car was parked in the un-numbered visitor bays.
Will take pictures of signs in case they change.
dhutch said:
I am not after £500, although I wouldn't say no.
If the lease does not allow for some form of permit scheme the PC should know they have no right to impose such a scheme and impose PCN’s. If they then access the DVLA database to obtain your details they have committed a breach of the DP Act. That’s entitles you to damages. This has been successful in a number of cases with PC. More importantly, if this is the case you can just write them a very strong letter confirming you will counterclaim if they start proceeding. That should shut them up.Mrr T said:
Less than zero.
Fair enough.Mrr T said:
Not if you pay on time
As in, the £100 plus fees when asked. (Rather than £100 today, before the 28days.)Mrr T said:
Update when you know...
about the leasehold agreement.
Will do.about the leasehold agreement.
Looks like a suitably world letter, with proof of post but not recorded, sent today?
Thanks
Worded even.....
PCN Ref no: xxxxxxxxx
To whom it may concern.
I am the registered keeper of vehicle xxxxxxxx to which you issued the above PCN notice to keeper.
I was not the driver at the time of the event and you have not complied with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 to hold me liable, namely but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within 14 days, section 9 (4).
I am not under any legal obligation to name the driver at the time and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that there will be no further action taken by you against me.
Regards
Name
PCN Ref no: xxxxxxxxx
To whom it may concern.
I am the registered keeper of vehicle xxxxxxxx to which you issued the above PCN notice to keeper.
I was not the driver at the time of the event and you have not complied with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 to hold me liable, namely but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within 14 days, section 9 (4).
I am not under any legal obligation to name the driver at the time and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that there will be no further action taken by you against me.
Regards
Name
My only hesitation is.
- I could have been the driver, I just don't know if was me or someone else, including my partner.
- If there had been a ticket on my windscreen, that claim I had seen and could have paid at the time.
edit:
Just re-read Section 9 (4) of POFA 2012 schedule 4.
The notice must be given by:
(a) handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b) sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
So screen notes appear not to count?
Daniel
- I could have been the driver, I just don't know if was me or someone else, including my partner.
- If there had been a ticket on my windscreen, that claim I had seen and could have paid at the time.
edit:
Just re-read Section 9 (4) of POFA 2012 schedule 4.
The notice must be given by:
(a) handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b) sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
So screen notes appear not to count?
Daniel
Edited by dhutch on Wednesday 3rd January 16:33
VCS do not rely on POFA, and the majority of their permit required signs don't actually form a contract. They nearly always assume the keeper is the driver, and keep reeling out the long since debunked case of Elliott v Loake. This used forensic evidence to prove the vehicle was at the scene of an accident, and the keeper acknowledged it wasn't stolen or loaned to anyone else, therefore he must have been driving. Absolutely no relevance to parking on private land, but VCS and many others still rely on it. Go figure...
Put in a strong appeal in the first instance listing all the various defence points, and don't bother with the IAS appeal. It'll likely go to BW Legal in a few months, but just keep reiterating the same points and it won't reach court. They are very active around Sheffield and I get asked a lot to help with appeals from friends. None of them have resulted in them being paid.
VCS are very selective in what they pursue via the courts, but don't have a great success rate
It's also worth contacting the managing agents of the property - often much easier than going through the skewed appeal process.
Put in a strong appeal in the first instance listing all the various defence points, and don't bother with the IAS appeal. It'll likely go to BW Legal in a few months, but just keep reiterating the same points and it won't reach court. They are very active around Sheffield and I get asked a lot to help with appeals from friends. None of them have resulted in them being paid.
VCS are very selective in what they pursue via the courts, but don't have a great success rate
It's also worth contacting the managing agents of the property - often much easier than going through the skewed appeal process.
I would like to thank everyone for their time, however having half of yesterday thinking about it I that continued into the evening, at at 11 last night i caved and paid it. Much as thought this pains me I think it is the right thing at this time. My partner had come over for the day on her day off post-nights to be with the dog and have the evening with me and I couldn't stop thinking about and at half nine has a minor breakdown over it which spoilt the evening for both of us.
Doesn't sit well with me, paying £60 for us trying our very best to do something we are allowed to do, for free, by their rules. Followed by a further £40 because the letter was delayed by the Christmas post.
I shall draft a suitable letter to the management company of the flats, explaining what happened and politely expressing my thoughts on the way the car park is being run, else otherwise life rolls.
We are in the middle of trying to buy a house together, there are several big projects on at work where I am the senior engineer in a small company, and i just don't have the time or emotional capacity to add this to my plate.
Cheers
Daniel
Doesn't sit well with me, paying £60 for us trying our very best to do something we are allowed to do, for free, by their rules. Followed by a further £40 because the letter was delayed by the Christmas post.
I shall draft a suitable letter to the management company of the flats, explaining what happened and politely expressing my thoughts on the way the car park is being run, else otherwise life rolls.
We are in the middle of trying to buy a house together, there are several big projects on at work where I am the senior engineer in a small company, and i just don't have the time or emotional capacity to add this to my plate.
Cheers
Daniel
dhutch said:
What are the additional defence points?
Daniel
Signage inadequate to form a contract, no permission from the landowner (most of these contracts are with the management agent), not compliant with POFA, if no windscreen ticket was issued, then it had to be served within 14 days, evidence that a permit could have been in place... Throw in a breach of the DPA for good measure, and some of these can even end up with a payment to the registered keeper!Daniel
If you have paid the £60, then so be it - I do know a number of people value their time more than cost of paying it, but the seagulls have had another chip...
dhutch
IT is saps like you that roll over and get their belly rubbed that keep these parasites operating as they do
If more people had the balls to stand up to them , THEN the legislation might change so they have got rules made by Govt to operate by. Until them, the bully boy tactics win every time
No doubt your details have ben forwrded among them to say you are easy meat
Pepipoo is there to help you, as Steve is on here
Yet you decide to crap out.
Sorry mate. that you feel you did the right thing....you didnt
Just dont expect any help next time it happens
Have a good year..at least we and pepipoo tried
IT is saps like you that roll over and get their belly rubbed that keep these parasites operating as they do
If more people had the balls to stand up to them , THEN the legislation might change so they have got rules made by Govt to operate by. Until them, the bully boy tactics win every time
No doubt your details have ben forwrded among them to say you are easy meat
Pepipoo is there to help you, as Steve is on here
Yet you decide to crap out.
Sorry mate. that you feel you did the right thing....you didnt
Just dont expect any help next time it happens
Have a good year..at least we and pepipoo tried
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