Professional Terms and Agreement
Discussion
If the bill was “a pint” then it seems reasonable regardless
Anything else depends on what was said and done
If it was a 10 min chat over the garden fence then he can sling his hook, if you asked for his professional advice which required real work, external fees and disembursements then who do you think should pay? I suspect it fell somewhere between the two.
Anything else depends on what was said and done
If it was a 10 min chat over the garden fence then he can sling his hook, if you asked for his professional advice which required real work, external fees and disembursements then who do you think should pay? I suspect it fell somewhere between the two.
Seems strange, and very unbusinesslike, but it is worth remembering that there is seldom such a thing as free advice from the giver's perspective.
I was warned when I worked for a consultancy, on pain of professional castration and/or dismissal, never to provide unpaid informal professional advice on a specific case to a friend (or even a client without a relevant engagement letter) as it could give rise to a potential liability to the firm if the recipient acted on it and subsequently felt it was faulty advice, even if no money had changed hands. The firm's insurers actually required every fee-earner to confirm that they had not done so, every year.
There was a case in Highgate recently where a couple were awarded substantial damages against a landscape gardener neighbour who had informally given them some "free" advice on a project that went wrong.
I was warned when I worked for a consultancy, on pain of professional castration and/or dismissal, never to provide unpaid informal professional advice on a specific case to a friend (or even a client without a relevant engagement letter) as it could give rise to a potential liability to the firm if the recipient acted on it and subsequently felt it was faulty advice, even if no money had changed hands. The firm's insurers actually required every fee-earner to confirm that they had not done so, every year.
There was a case in Highgate recently where a couple were awarded substantial damages against a landscape gardener neighbour who had informally given them some "free" advice on a project that went wrong.
psi310398 said:
Seems strange, and very unbusinesslike, but it is worth remembering that there is seldom such a thing as free advice from the giver's perspective.
I was warned when I worked for a consultancy, on pain of professional castration and/or dismissal, never to provide unpaid informal professional advice on a specific case to a friend (or even a client without a relevant engagement letter) as it could give rise to a potential liability to the firm if the recipient acted on it and subsequently felt it was faulty advice, even if no money had changed hands. The firm's insurers actually required every fee-earner to confirm that they had not done so, every year.
There was a case in Highgate recently where a couple were awarded substantial damages against a landscape gardener neighbour who had informally given them some "free" advice on a project that went wrong.
That makes complete sense, in one respect, but it's a bit sI was warned when I worked for a consultancy, on pain of professional castration and/or dismissal, never to provide unpaid informal professional advice on a specific case to a friend (or even a client without a relevant engagement letter) as it could give rise to a potential liability to the firm if the recipient acted on it and subsequently felt it was faulty advice, even if no money had changed hands. The firm's insurers actually required every fee-earner to confirm that they had not done so, every year.
There was a case in Highgate recently where a couple were awarded substantial damages against a landscape gardener neighbour who had informally given them some "free" advice on a project that went wrong.
t, isn't it? I would take such unpaid advice as showing me the direction to narrow the focus of my own research into the situation, or of what I should be specifically looking for from the actual paid advice I get, instead of having to cast a wider net without really knowing where to start.
Going after someone whose informal free advice turned out to be worth exactly that is all a bit "bigger boys made me do it", has to be someone else's fault, isn't it?
InitialDave said:
That makes complete sense, in one respect, but it's a bit st, isn't it?
I would take such unpaid advice as showing me the direction to narrow the focus of my own research into the situation, or of what I should be specifically looking for from the actual paid advice I get, instead of having to cast a wider net without really knowing where to start.
Going after someone whose informal free advice turned out to be worth exactly that is all a bit "bigger boys made me do it", has to be someone else's fault, isn't it?
Exactly so. But we live in an increasingly infantilised world.t, isn't it? I would take such unpaid advice as showing me the direction to narrow the focus of my own research into the situation, or of what I should be specifically looking for from the actual paid advice I get, instead of having to cast a wider net without really knowing where to start.
Going after someone whose informal free advice turned out to be worth exactly that is all a bit "bigger boys made me do it", has to be someone else's fault, isn't it?
I've had neighbours offer to pay after I've given neighbourly advice.
I've always refused because not only was it clearly just neighbourly advice given freely because it's a neighbourly thing to do, but also because there's been no proper professional/client relationship, no terms and conditions set out, and potentially I'm treading on the toes of the professional that the neighbour usually uses. My professional indemnity provider would cover me because I'm the owner of my company, but I doubt I'd be covered if I was an associate.
I've always made it clear that the advice is not actually professional, just an indication of what to expect if they do actually seek professional advice and I make suggests of what to ask for.
Advice is a charged word - it can describe vague suggestions from one non-professional to another, but can also refer to professional recommendations with consequent liability.
It's pretty unprofessional to demand payment for neighbourly advice in retrospect, no?
To the OP, whether you pay or not depends on how valuable you felt the advice was, how much the bill is, how much you value an on-going relationship with this neighbour, and whether or not you feel you're being taken advantage of.
I've always refused because not only was it clearly just neighbourly advice given freely because it's a neighbourly thing to do, but also because there's been no proper professional/client relationship, no terms and conditions set out, and potentially I'm treading on the toes of the professional that the neighbour usually uses. My professional indemnity provider would cover me because I'm the owner of my company, but I doubt I'd be covered if I was an associate.
I've always made it clear that the advice is not actually professional, just an indication of what to expect if they do actually seek professional advice and I make suggests of what to ask for.
Advice is a charged word - it can describe vague suggestions from one non-professional to another, but can also refer to professional recommendations with consequent liability.
It's pretty unprofessional to demand payment for neighbourly advice in retrospect, no?
To the OP, whether you pay or not depends on how valuable you felt the advice was, how much the bill is, how much you value an on-going relationship with this neighbour, and whether or not you feel you're being taken advantage of.
Edited by Ed/L152 on Thursday 18th January 11:50
Wings said:
I received an unexpected bill today, the same from a neighbour who has been offering neighbourly advice with a building dispute. Are there any set legal procedures that the neighbour, a professional person should follow, before acting, advising another person/client etc.
You had no contract so legally he can go spin, unless you agreed something verbally (contracts do not have to be written down)Your question is moral/ethical.
Personally I would seek to defuse while recognizing that he has done you a favour, and offer to take him for lunch or buy him a few bottles of wine in lieu of payment. If challenged, you can highlight that you didn't ask for indemnified advice, just a friendly chat.
I have found more and more recently, that gone are the day when a neighbour, person might do a freebie. Just recently a decorator painting a flat for me, requested if I wanted rubbish removed to the recycle tip, “Yes” I replied, included in his decorating bill was a charge of 325 removing rubbish to the tip.
Two sides to every story - seeking out a neighbour you may not speak to very often and pick their brain because you know they're a professional in that field - there's a point at which it becomes taking liberties (I'm not saying thats whats happened here, just expressing one end of the spectrum). You are on the scrounge for a freebie whichever way you look at it. I could tell you which of my neighbours I'd expect to be able to ask for advice and they'd willingly give freely and which ones I wouldn't know, simply because I don't know them that well. I also know where I'd draw the lines in offering advice and some neighbours I'd spend a day helping them freely and others I wouldn't.
This story could just as easily be written from the other side as "A guy down the road I've spoken to maybe twice before comes round and says "hi, are you the guy thats a property consultant as I have a thorny issue I'd like some proper advice on it?". We verbally agree I'd do a bit of digging so I pull the records of the planning application, I get a couple of searches done which cost a few quid, and I gave him what he needed. He probably got a grands worth of work done for a few hundred quid saving him maybe £700 as the bill I gave him barely covered my costs. He's now moaning about the bill, bad mouthing me to the other neighbours and is refusing to acknowledge he asked me for advice saying it was just a chat. I don't want to sue him as he's a neighbour, what can I do to make him cover the costs? We've just had a second baby so the missus isn't working and moneys a bit tight and I really don't want to be out of pocket. So much for trying to be a good neighbour!
This story could just as easily be written from the other side as "A guy down the road I've spoken to maybe twice before comes round and says "hi, are you the guy thats a property consultant as I have a thorny issue I'd like some proper advice on it?". We verbally agree I'd do a bit of digging so I pull the records of the planning application, I get a couple of searches done which cost a few quid, and I gave him what he needed. He probably got a grands worth of work done for a few hundred quid saving him maybe £700 as the bill I gave him barely covered my costs. He's now moaning about the bill, bad mouthing me to the other neighbours and is refusing to acknowledge he asked me for advice saying it was just a chat. I don't want to sue him as he's a neighbour, what can I do to make him cover the costs? We've just had a second baby so the missus isn't working and moneys a bit tight and I really don't want to be out of pocket. So much for trying to be a good neighbour!
Heres Johnny said:
Two sides to every story - seeking out a neighbour you may not speak to very often and pick their brain because you know they're a professional in that field - there's a point at which it becomes taking liberties (I'm not saying thats whats happened here, just expressing one end of the spectrum). You are on the scrounge for a freebie whichever way you look at it. I could tell you which of my neighbours I'd expect to be able to ask for advice and they'd willingly give freely and which ones I wouldn't know, simply because I don't know them that well. I also know where I'd draw the lines in offering advice and some neighbours I'd spend a day helping them freely and others I wouldn't.
This story could just as easily be written from the other side as "A guy down the road I've spoken to maybe twice before comes round and says "hi, are you the guy thats a property consultant as I have a thorny issue I'd like some proper advice on it?". We verbally agree I'd do a bit of digging so I pull the records of the planning application, I get a couple of searches done which cost a few quid, and I gave him what he needed. He probably got a grands worth of work done for a few hundred quid saving him maybe £700 as the bill I gave him barely covered my costs. He's now moaning about the bill, bad mouthing me to the other neighbours and is refusing to acknowledge he asked me for advice saying it was just a chat. I don't want to sue him as he's a neighbour, what can I do to make him cover the costs? We've just had a second baby so the missus isn't working and moneys a bit tight and I really don't want to be out of pocket. So much for trying to be a good neighbour!
Sure.. but if you are a professional (and you want protection from indemnity, etc) then agree terms up front, not after the fact, costs or no costs. Even if it is a massive discount.This story could just as easily be written from the other side as "A guy down the road I've spoken to maybe twice before comes round and says "hi, are you the guy thats a property consultant as I have a thorny issue I'd like some proper advice on it?". We verbally agree I'd do a bit of digging so I pull the records of the planning application, I get a couple of searches done which cost a few quid, and I gave him what he needed. He probably got a grands worth of work done for a few hundred quid saving him maybe £700 as the bill I gave him barely covered my costs. He's now moaning about the bill, bad mouthing me to the other neighbours and is refusing to acknowledge he asked me for advice saying it was just a chat. I don't want to sue him as he's a neighbour, what can I do to make him cover the costs? We've just had a second baby so the missus isn't working and moneys a bit tight and I really don't want to be out of pocket. So much for trying to be a good neighbour!
Never start work without a contract, or at least heads of terms. If you are going to incur costs in doing the favour then you need to tell the client/neighbour and see if they are ok with it.
"Surprise" bills are not acceptable from a professional, regardless of the discount, help or favour.
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