The truth about getting fit, tonight at 8pm

[227bhp]

On BBC1 looks well worth a watch to me, blurb here:

"Medical journalist Michael Mosley and a team of scientists investigate some of the easiest and most effective ways to get the biggest benefits of exercise, and turning what we think we know about fitness on its head. The team reveal why walking 10,000 steps a day is just a marketing ploy, and that two minutes of intense exercise is all you need per week. Elsewhere in the programme, they also discuss ways to help you stick to your fitness plan, and discuss exercises that can actually have a positive impact on brain activity"

Please don't move to TV section....

[Smitters]

Is this a repeat? I'm sure I saw something similar a few years ago. Was quite interesting.

[227bhp]

No it isn't. They were interviewing the guy on R2 and it sounded quite good, especially if you have a Fitbit type thing.

[Smitters]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cywtq

Possibly a follow up or "how thinking's changed" piece then, conceptually, if not in how it's presented.Cheers for the heads up.

[RobM77]

Both my wife and I were sceptical about what the running expert interviewed by MM was saying; essentially that running isn't bad for your knees and joints. I realise he's an expert and we're not, but we're both keen runners, plus my wife's a highly qualified doctor, and what that guy was saying is contrary to the opinion of everyone involved with running that we've ever spoken to, including a gait analysis coach who we both saw last year for gait improvement (who has a biomechanics MSc and PHd).

[budgie smuggler]

RobM77 said:

Both my wife and I were sceptical about what the running expert interviewed by MM was saying; essentially that running isn't bad for your knees and joints. I realise he's an expert and we're not, but we're both keen runners, plus my wife's a highly qualified doctor, and what that guy was saying is contrary to the opinion of everyone involved with running that we've ever spoken to, including a gait analysis coach who we both saw last year for gait improvement (who has a biomechanics MSc and PHd).

Yes, I didn't really understand what he meant by that. Which seemed to be basically that the higher peak load on the knee didn't really matter, as the duration was short, compared to walking.

[RobM77]

budgie smuggler said:

RobM77 said:

Both my wife and I were sceptical about what the running expert interviewed by MM was saying; essentially that running isn't bad for your knees and joints. I realise he's an expert and we're not, but we're both keen runners, plus my wife's a highly qualified doctor, and what that guy was saying is contrary to the opinion of everyone involved with running that we've ever spoken to, including a gait analysis coach who we both saw last year for gait improvement (who has a biomechanics MSc and PHd).

Yes, I didn't really understand what he meant by that. Which seemed to be basically that the higher peak load on the knee didn't really matter, as the duration was short, compared to walking.

Yes, that's a bit like saying if I tap you with a pen 100 times it'll hurt as much as if I hit you with a hammer once. From a physics point of view it'll exert the same energy, and the work done is the same, but any structure has stress limits and thresholds beyond which damage occurs. MM hit him with that exact argument actually, but the guy just shrugged it off if I remember rightly. I have a scientific background, and as such I'm willing to bow to evidence if he can present a lot more of it in more depth along with his arguments - on face value on TV, it just didn't make sense. For sure, there are lots of positives about running, but he seemed to be focusing on those and ignoring the negatives. Any sport can and will injure you if you do it too much, even at a mild rate and even swimming (my wife also got annoyed at how they later inferred that swimming was injury free!). The only thing I can imagine is that what he's saying is true for a young athlete with great muscle tone and a perfect running gait. For most of us more normal after work 3 times a week runners though, knees are a constant problem.

I've run on and off my whole life, and have always had a BMI well within the normal healthy range, but for me running is a constant struggle against knee pain and knee injury. As mentioned above, I saw a gait analysis expert last year, who was amazing, and he's got me running again without much knee pain, but I can still tell it's not good for my knees and do get aches and pains of the order that stop me doing certain things, like long stair climbs the day after a run etc. I do have a feeling that if I'd seen that gait guy when I was 15 years old I'd be fine now, but the expert last night didn't mention gait at all in that TV interview, which surely is a big mistake? (or was that edited out?!).

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 1st February 10:43

[Smitters]

I shall have to grab it on the iPlayer. I have spent the last five years amending my gait from a heel striking overstride to a circa 180 spm so have some fairly robust views on running, health, injury and so on.

I do slightly worry that the BBC is heaving down the knee-jerk populist journalism route, quick fix, eye-catching headline type stuff. A nation of increasingly heavy, unfit and unhealthy people eager to lap up the next "it only takes two minutes a day" solution. Maybe I'm outdated, but without strong evidence to the contrary, I'm going to be hard to convince that time and effort and good diet are foundation requirements.

As above, an anatomically perfect athlete, excellent form, great health could probably go 0-100mph exercise wise and go flat out for five minutes, but the lay person will likely pull something going flat out, just like they'll hurt themselves by heading out and running ten miles a day from nothing.

I shall watch with as open a mind as possible...

[RobM77]

Smitters said:

I shall have to grab it on the iPlayer. I have spent the last five years amending my gait from a heel striking overstride to a circa 180 spm so have some fairly robust views on running, health, injury and so on.

I do slightly worry that the BBC is heaving down the knee-jerk populist journalism route, quick fix, eye-catching headline type stuff. A nation of increasingly heavy, unfit and unhealthy people eager to lap up the next "it only takes two minutes a day" solution. Maybe I'm outdated, but without strong evidence to the contrary, I'm going to be hard to convince that time and effort and good diet are foundation requirements.

As above, an anatomically perfect athlete, excellent form, great health could probably go 0-100mph exercise wise and go flat out for five minutes, but the lay person will likely pull something going flat out, just like they'll hurt themselves by heading out and running ten miles a day from nothing.

I shall watch with as open a mind as possible...

As with most BBC programmes, especially on BBC1 or 2, it was heavily compressed and simplified. What the running guy was saying though just seemed completely wrong to us. They did say to build up to things gradually, but as I guess you'll agree, even a normal weight guy plodding along at around 5min/km would hurt their knees with the wrong ('average'?) gait with quite a modest amount of running, which runs totally counter to what this guy was saying (basically "you'll be fine - it's good for you!).

I also had a very pronounced heel strike, which after last year's gait analysis sessions I have now fixed and increased my spm (I'm now 165). I'm now running 3 times a week (the popular intervals, distance and tempo runs; 10km for distance and 5k for the other two) and I'm happy with my gait, but I can tell my knees don't want me to do much more! Given how much other sport I do (inc weights), the fact my BMI is bang on, and the fact I built up to this running very, very gradually, I do I think this guy's advice needs a lot of caveats.

[JagBox]

As someone who ran for 30 years, I stopped after a cartilage operation when they discovered grade 2 arthritis in my knee. Most of my running mates have stopped at some point due to knee or hip problems, very few compete as masters. I thought the program was liberal with the truth.

We all cycle now, less stress........

[RobM77]

JagBox said:

As someone who ran for 30 years, I stopped after a cartilage operation when they discovered grade 2 arthritis in my knee. Most of my running mates have stopped at some point due to knee or hip problems, very few compete as masters. I thought the program was liberal with the truth.

We all cycle now, less stress........

Those are typical stories. I can’t do the mileage to compete in masters sadly. Cycling’s fine for me too, as is swimming front crawl with a two beat kick, which is what I do on my non running days. Walking’s ok, and we often do 4-6 hour walks, but I struggle going down long hills. This sort of knee pain is all part of being an active 40 year old I think, but it didn’t even get a mention last night.

[WestyCarl]

Humans were designed to run (albeit slowly), the issue that's causes alot of current injuries is the rise of cushion shoes in the 70's which allow us to heel strike instead of forefoot strike.

[LordGrover]

Usual shoddy 'reporting' from BBC/Mosley. Surprising they get away with it.

[RobM77]

LordGrover said:

Usual shoddy 'reporting' from BBC/Mosley. Surprising they get away with it.

I remember a programme he did once where he declared that exercise was useless for losing weight, because an hour in the gym burns fewer calories than you get in a large Mars bar. He didn't think to mention that a large mars bar contains more calories than an average dinner! Nevertheless, a friend of mine quoted that fact from Michael Moseley at me as a reason for never exercising.

[Smitters]

I got 15 mins in and lost the will to live. Already massive generalisations. So I can do 30 mins of brisk walking and st still the rest of the day and I'll be better off? No, of course not. But by saying that, you're OK'ing the static lives of everyone. Cue the 2020 edition, Micheal Mosely, why does everyone's back/leg/hip hurt and is it because we sit on our arses all day?

[The jiffle king]

I had this programme on in the background and I could not work out what the BBC were trying to say. It seemed like it's ok to exercise for 2 minutes a day intensively and you'll be fine!!!

We have a population which is getting fatter, we're not doing enough exercise, medicine is helping to keep us alive longer and anyone not knowing anything about health and fitness would see this and think that a brisk walk will keep them fit.

[p1stonhead]

The jiffle king said:

I had this programme on in the background and I could not work out what the BBC were trying to say. It seemed like it's ok to exercise for 2 minutes a day intensively and you'll be fine!!!

We have a population which is getting fatter, we're not doing enough exercise, medicine is helping to keep us alive longer and anyone not knowing anything about health and fitness would see this and think that a brisk walk will keep them fit.

Far beyond what a lot of people get.

[Smitters]

The jiffle king said:

I had this programme on in the background and I could not work out what the BBC were trying to say. It seemed like it's ok to exercise for 2 minutes a day intensively and you'll be fine!!!

We have a population which is getting fatter, we're not doing enough exercise, medicine is helping to keep us alive longer and anyone not knowing anything about health and fitness would see this and think that a brisk walk will keep them fit.

I agree. The whole message I got was less time, less time, less time. I'd be more interested in the science behind swift glycogen depletion and the whole body benefits, but that was clearly TMI...

On the knees bit, I actually agree with the conclusion over force. The key point is the "acceptable force" statement. The running knee takes twice the force for half the time than the walking knee. The supposition that it's therefore twice as damaging pre-supposes that the high force of running is something the knee can't cope with. The pen and hammer analogy above works , but what if you think about a light tap from pen and a hard tap from a pen? You can cope with that hard tap just fine right? So as long as you're not running like a hunchback and twisting your joints, landing with a perfectly straight leg in your cushioned shoes, or setting out to do 100 miles on your first run, it's OK to run.

Edited by Smitters on Friday 2nd February 09:44

[Hoofy]

RobM77 said:

This sort of knee pain is all part of being an active 40 year old

Speak for yourself, old man!

My knees are perfectly fine and I do all sorts of sports - just not running or cycling. I run if I have to chase a ball but that's usually a sprint.

[drdel]

They failed to mention that running with a good technique and 'jogging' at 4mph are widely different in the stress it places on your back, legs, knees and ankles.

The 'expert' was a running enthusiast!