Operation Barbarossa
Discussion
Inspired partly by another thread and partly by a YouTube video which claimed that the main reason the Germans lost the offensive against Russia due to being outnumbered and underestimating the Soviet strength, it got me wondering had the Germans launched the offensive earlier in 1941 how much different might the outcome have been? What's everyone's thoughts?
Ultimately Russia is a very, very hard place to invade because of its size. And you are right ultimately, the Soviet Union could just throw men (and not even necessarily arms) at the problem and overwhelm the opposition. It’s worked for them before. However, in my opinion, there is some logic to lopping the head off the beast.
So there is an argument that by taking Moscow, the impact will be massive despite soviet numbers.
Ultimately it was winter that did for the German attempts to take Moscow - as it did for napoleon. But he came very very close.
So arguably yes if he had started even a month earlier, the outcome would have been very different.
However, that’d be to look at Barbarossa in isolation. The practicalities of running it we’re dependent on resources in the West also - and you could comfortably argue that if hitler hasn’t spread himself too thin and dealt with one front at a time, there’d have been more success.
So there is an argument that by taking Moscow, the impact will be massive despite soviet numbers.
Ultimately it was winter that did for the German attempts to take Moscow - as it did for napoleon. But he came very very close.
So arguably yes if he had started even a month earlier, the outcome would have been very different.
However, that’d be to look at Barbarossa in isolation. The practicalities of running it we’re dependent on resources in the West also - and you could comfortably argue that if hitler hasn’t spread himself too thin and dealt with one front at a time, there’d have been more success.
Ultimately it would not have made any difference to the eventual outcome of the war, Russia was such a huge country they just kept moving their factories east, and this would have over stretched Germany's supply chain.
Once America started mass producing nukes after 1945 they could have turned Germany to dust in weeks, all their main cities were in ruins anyway even with conventional bombs.
World war four will be fought with bows and arrows.
Once America started mass producing nukes after 1945 they could have turned Germany to dust in weeks, all their main cities were in ruins anyway even with conventional bombs.
World war four will be fought with bows and arrows.
Wacky Racer said:
Ultimately it would not have made any difference to the eventual outcome of the war, Russia was such a huge country they just kept moving their factories east, and this would have over stretched Germany's supply chain.
.
Western Europe had a reasonable road (and rail) system even if they didn't have the German autobahns. Russia by comparison was undeveloped with few roads and rough ones at that which might have been OK for off-road tanks but totally unsuited for supply lines..
Many in the Soviet Union hated the Communists; the purges had eliminated thousands even before the war started and Stalin was considered, and of course was, a tyrant.
The Nazis had a hardline racial philosophy but when they invaded the Ukraine they were treated as liberators from Stalin and not as invaders. If they had modified their modus operandi and treated the locals somewhat better (they would have been eliminated in the long run any way) and gotten them on their side the outcome might have been different; just might, although I'm inclined to doubt it.
One more issue not mentioned. The Japanese had a little known but important battle with the Soviets in 1939 in mongolia and the Japanese were decisively defeated and this was an important reason why the Soviet Union never had to worry about an attack from the East.
The Nazis had a hardline racial philosophy but when they invaded the Ukraine they were treated as liberators from Stalin and not as invaders. If they had modified their modus operandi and treated the locals somewhat better (they would have been eliminated in the long run any way) and gotten them on their side the outcome might have been different; just might, although I'm inclined to doubt it.
One more issue not mentioned. The Japanese had a little known but important battle with the Soviets in 1939 in mongolia and the Japanese were decisively defeated and this was an important reason why the Soviet Union never had to worry about an attack from the East.
bludger said:
Many in the Soviet Union hated the Communists; the purges had eliminated thousands even before the war started and Stalin was considered, and of course was, a tyrant.
The Nazis had a hardline racial philosophy but when they invaded the Ukraine they were treated as liberators from Stalin and not as invaders. If they had modified their modus operandi and treated the locals somewhat better (they would have been eliminated in the long run any way) and gotten them on their side the outcome might have been different; just might, although I'm inclined to doubt it.
One more issue not mentioned. The Japanese had a little known but important battle with the Soviets in 1939 in mongolia and the Japanese were decisively defeated and this was an important reason why the Soviet Union never had to worry about an attack from the East.
Moscow had a few spies in Japan reporting back on the Japanese High commands military plans, amongst them Richard Sorge.The Nazis had a hardline racial philosophy but when they invaded the Ukraine they were treated as liberators from Stalin and not as invaders. If they had modified their modus operandi and treated the locals somewhat better (they would have been eliminated in the long run any way) and gotten them on their side the outcome might have been different; just might, although I'm inclined to doubt it.
One more issue not mentioned. The Japanese had a little known but important battle with the Soviets in 1939 in mongolia and the Japanese were decisively defeated and this was an important reason why the Soviet Union never had to worry about an attack from the East.
The Japanese had no plans to attack the USSR in the far East until the Germans had captured any city on the river Volga which would almost certainly been the beginning of the end for Stalin. Once the end was in sight for the USSR the Japanese would've gone to war as an oportunist land grab the same as the Italians did at the fall of France
Tango13 said:
Moscow had a few spies in Japan reporting back on the Japanese High commands military plans, amongst them Richard Sorge.
The Japanese had no plans to attack the USSR in the far East until the Germans had captured any city on the river Volga which would almost certainly been the beginning of the end for Stalin. Once the end was in sight for the USSR the Japanese would've gone to war as an oportunist land grab the same as the Italians did at the fall of France
The battle was at Khalkhin - Gol in mongolia and there is an account of its significance here:The Japanese had no plans to attack the USSR in the far East until the Germans had captured any city on the river Volga which would almost certainly been the beginning of the end for Stalin. Once the end was in sight for the USSR the Japanese would've gone to war as an oportunist land grab the same as the Italians did at the fall of France
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2013/05/07/war_in_the_e...
It's also one of Ian Kershaw's ten fateful choices in: "Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions that Changed the World, 1940-1941".
Its probable that Barbarossa could not start any earlier due to the build up of forces required.
No provision for winter clothing didnt help.
Instead of focussing on Moscow and Stalingrad if they had pushed south and taken all the oil fields in the Caucasus that could have made quite a difference.
bludger said:
Tango13 said:
Moscow had a few spies in Japan reporting back on the Japanese High commands military plans, amongst them Richard Sorge.
The Japanese had no plans to attack the USSR in the far East until the Germans had captured any city on the river Volga which would almost certainly been the beginning of the end for Stalin. Once the end was in sight for the USSR the Japanese would've gone to war as an oportunist land grab the same as the Italians did at the fall of France
The battle was at Khalkhin - Gol in mongolia and there is an account of its significance here:The Japanese had no plans to attack the USSR in the far East until the Germans had captured any city on the river Volga which would almost certainly been the beginning of the end for Stalin. Once the end was in sight for the USSR the Japanese would've gone to war as an oportunist land grab the same as the Italians did at the fall of France
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2013/05/07/war_in_the_e...
It's also one of Ian Kershaw's ten fateful choices in: "Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions that Changed the World, 1940-1941".
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