Executor delaying will proceeds to beneficeries
Discussion
My sister, one of 4 siblings,through a lifetime of manipulation became the executor of my our Mum's will, garnering around 75% of the proceeds. Not that the 3 remaining siblings are bitter, lol.
Anyway, the proceeds were available to be distributed on Jan 6th 2018, but she is refusing to sign off the accounts to enable funds to be released.
According to her first ex husband, this is because having drained the funds of her second husband, she has started divorce proceedings, but doesn't want to have to disclose her winnings of nearly £500k for obvious reasons.
Here's the thing though- she, and her trainee solicitor daughter have already inspected the accounts when they were first available 6 months ago and raised no questions.
As this tedious debacle with her divorce could drag on for ages, how do we get her to act in a timely manner to release funds to her siblings and their children?
The solicitor dealing with this, one of the trustees says we just have to wait. I suspect that is merely to keep the funds in the client account and also save her from doing anything. She has become a trustee after the original trustee solicitor at the practice was struck off for stealing clients money.
They even had the audacity to charge the estate for appointing a new solicitor as trustee! They have also charged us for correspondence telling us they had forgotten to send docs off to the HMRC.
Anyway, the proceeds were available to be distributed on Jan 6th 2018, but she is refusing to sign off the accounts to enable funds to be released.
According to her first ex husband, this is because having drained the funds of her second husband, she has started divorce proceedings, but doesn't want to have to disclose her winnings of nearly £500k for obvious reasons.
Here's the thing though- she, and her trainee solicitor daughter have already inspected the accounts when they were first available 6 months ago and raised no questions.
As this tedious debacle with her divorce could drag on for ages, how do we get her to act in a timely manner to release funds to her siblings and their children?
The solicitor dealing with this, one of the trustees says we just have to wait. I suspect that is merely to keep the funds in the client account and also save her from doing anything. She has become a trustee after the original trustee solicitor at the practice was struck off for stealing clients money.
They even had the audacity to charge the estate for appointing a new solicitor as trustee! They have also charged us for correspondence telling us they had forgotten to send docs off to the HMRC.
Who is the solicitor trustee for? Are there under-age beneficiaries?
When did your mother die? There is a convention that, if possible, an estate should be distributed within a year from death. It seems there is no reason to delay the distribution (other than your sister's divorce).
If it's more than a year since death you may want to see a solicitor yourself with a view to hurrying things along by threatening to have your sister removed as executor as she is refusing to distribute the estate. .
When did your mother die? There is a convention that, if possible, an estate should be distributed within a year from death. It seems there is no reason to delay the distribution (other than your sister's divorce).
If it's more than a year since death you may want to see a solicitor yourself with a view to hurrying things along by threatening to have your sister removed as executor as she is refusing to distribute the estate. .
andygo said:
The solicitor dealing with this, one of the trustees says we just have to wait. I suspect that is merely to keep the funds in the client account and also save her from doing anything..
In the most general terms, she's right. Google "executor's year". Your suspicion is likely to be misplaced.There's a mechanism by which an application can be made to the court to force the hand of a recalcitrant executor but it's a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut in most cases and the cost will outweigh the benefit in most cases.
Lurking Lawyer said:
There's a mechanism by which an application can be made to the court to force the hand of a recalcitrant executor but it's a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut in most cases and the cost will outweigh the benefit in most cases.
Didn't cost my wife a penny, the recalcitrant executor was ordered by the judge to pay the costs...andygo said:
My sister, one of 4 siblings,through a lifetime of manipulation became the executor of my our Mum's will, garnering around 75% of the proceeds.
They are, of course, two different things. The executor is simply the person who does the work and is responsible for gathering it all in, sorting IHT, and distributing it. They do not have to be a beneficiary at all.andygo said:
Anyway, the proceeds were available to be distributed on Jan 6th 2018
When did your mother die?andygo said:
According to her first ex husband
Hardly a disinterested bystander...andygo said:
The solicitor dealing with this, one of the trustees says we just have to wait...
She has become a trustee after the original trustee solicitor at the practice was struck off for stealing clients money.
They even had the audacity to charge the estate for appointing a new solicitor as trustee!
What trust are you talking about? Do you mean that the solicitor is also an executor?She has become a trustee after the original trustee solicitor at the practice was struck off for stealing clients money.
They even had the audacity to charge the estate for appointing a new solicitor as trustee!
Mum died in November 2016, all the probate stuff was sorted out by June and accounts presented to Sister and the three other siblings. There was 6 month wait according to the solicitor (who is a trustee) and funds should be released on 6th Jan 2018.
My sister refuses to sign, so preventing any monies being paid out.
I tend to believe first ex husbands reasoning as it's entirely plausible and fits in with her standard way of doing things. So although he is hardly disinterested, so what?
My sister refuses to sign, so preventing any monies being paid out.
I tend to believe first ex husbands reasoning as it's entirely plausible and fits in with her standard way of doing things. So although he is hardly disinterested, so what?
I think you should make it very clear to your sister that you will not tolerate any further delays and that she has no chance of dragging out the distribution until after her divorce (which could be many months away) as you are prepared to start legal proceedings to have her removed.
Andy
Could you explain why there is a trustee involved? If the will involves setting up a trust this may be why it's taking so long.
I'm interested in this as I think my brother may be intending to do the something similar after he manipulated my mother to appoint him as sole executor at the end of last year.
Could you explain why there is a trustee involved? If the will involves setting up a trust this may be why it's taking so long.
I'm interested in this as I think my brother may be intending to do the something similar after he manipulated my mother to appoint him as sole executor at the end of last year.
There are 3 trustees involved I believe. Two solicitors and my sister who is also the executor.
I think there are multiple trustees involved/appointed to ensure the estate is handled properly, like a commitee I suppose, with the executor being in charge.
The solicitors have been very uncommunicative - we have had to ask for basic info and progress reports which they then have charged us for.
I think there are multiple trustees involved/appointed to ensure the estate is handled properly, like a commitee I suppose, with the executor being in charge.
The solicitors have been very uncommunicative - we have had to ask for basic info and progress reports which they then have charged us for.
andygo said:
I think there are multiple trustees involved/appointed to ensure the estate is handled properly, like a commitee I suppose, with the executor being in charge.
That doesn't sound right at all. Executor(s) handle the estate. There can be (often are) multiple executors.Almost every poster has asked what the trustees are trustees of and you haven't answered.
The solicitors may be trustees in that they are holding the assets of the estate for the executor, without any explicit or implicit trust being set up in the in the will for minors this means very little, only that the estate's funds are in the solicitor's bank account.
Have you thought of informing sister's husband that she is due a windfall and he might be best delaying any divorce?
Have you thought of informing sister's husband that she is due a windfall and he might be best delaying any divorce?
Is the OP mixing up the word “trustee” with the word “executor” and using the two words interchangeably?
If there truly are trustees then there must be a trust. The OP needs to tell us what the nature of that trust is.
I handled the estates of both my parents last year. My Dad died in Jan 2017 and Mum died 6 or so years ago, but I discovered that Dad had failed to complete probate for her and just gave up. I withdrew his probate application and started from scratch.
A trust was involved for Mum’s estate. It was a discretionary nil-rate band trust, designed to preserve tax-free entitlements for IHT purposes (no longer necessary of course, but the will was structured that way so that’s what we had to do).
Despite there being a trust involved, it didn’t impose any significant delays - and certainly not for the distribution of funds. Probate took a l-o-o-o-n-g time, 99% of which was due to HMRC’s inefficiency. But once that was sorted the actual distribution of the funds was perfectly quick, limited only by daily BACS transfer limits (I was too tight to pay for CHAPS).
I kept a detailed spreadsheet of all money received and distributed, but there was no signing-off of accounts as such. More than a year has now passed and there’s still a small amount to distribute, but that’s due to US shares and there’s an incredibly long process to go through there - the IRS makes HMRC look hyper-efficient!
I can see no reason for any delay in this case, apart from the OP’s sister’s reasons for wanting to delay things for her own benefit.
But we do need to know whether a trust is involved, and what type of trust it is. If there isn’t, then the OP needs to stop confusing us by using the word “trustee” when he just means “executor”.
If there truly are trustees then there must be a trust. The OP needs to tell us what the nature of that trust is.
I handled the estates of both my parents last year. My Dad died in Jan 2017 and Mum died 6 or so years ago, but I discovered that Dad had failed to complete probate for her and just gave up. I withdrew his probate application and started from scratch.
A trust was involved for Mum’s estate. It was a discretionary nil-rate band trust, designed to preserve tax-free entitlements for IHT purposes (no longer necessary of course, but the will was structured that way so that’s what we had to do).
Despite there being a trust involved, it didn’t impose any significant delays - and certainly not for the distribution of funds. Probate took a l-o-o-o-n-g time, 99% of which was due to HMRC’s inefficiency. But once that was sorted the actual distribution of the funds was perfectly quick, limited only by daily BACS transfer limits (I was too tight to pay for CHAPS).
I kept a detailed spreadsheet of all money received and distributed, but there was no signing-off of accounts as such. More than a year has now passed and there’s still a small amount to distribute, but that’s due to US shares and there’s an incredibly long process to go through there - the IRS makes HMRC look hyper-efficient!
I can see no reason for any delay in this case, apart from the OP’s sister’s reasons for wanting to delay things for her own benefit.
But we do need to know whether a trust is involved, and what type of trust it is. If there isn’t, then the OP needs to stop confusing us by using the word “trustee” when he just means “executor”.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Monday 19th February 06:53
We have thought of contacting him, but since he has apparently vacated my sisters house we have no way of getting in touch with him. I'm sure he knows there is a substantial chunk of money on the horizon, but probably doesn't realise he would be entitled to half.
Looking at the paperwork I have received from the solicitors last year, it looks like the they are trustees AND Executors of the will, along with my sister.
I didn't realise this until just now, so can the solicitors override my sisters reluctance to sign off the wills proceeds?
Looking at the paperwork I have received from the solicitors last year, it looks like the they are trustees AND Executors of the will, along with my sister.
I didn't realise this until just now, so can the solicitors override my sisters reluctance to sign off the wills proceeds?
andygo said:
Looking at the paperwork I have received from the solicitors last year, it looks like the they are trustees AND Executors of the will, along with my sister.
But as we keep asking: what sort of trust is it?The phrase “trustees of the will” is meaningless. Wills don’t automatically involve trustees, unless a trust is created. Does the will create a discretionary nil-rate band trust, as my parents’ wills did?
If you don’t know and understand what the trust is, if there is one, then I suggest your first step is to contact the solicitor and ask them to explain to you why there is a trust, and what sort of trust it is.
Are you yourself an executor, or just a beneficiary? I’m assuming you’re not a trustee of whatever trust it is.
Also, who told you that there had to be formal accounts and that these had to be signed off? The double probate process that I went through, with its discretionary nil-rate trust and its off-shore shares and two properties, was pretty damn complex - but there was no formal signing-off of accounts before I could distribute funds. I’m quite sure the solicitor would have told me if it were necessary!
Perhaps the solicitors are doing everything on behalf of the executors, and they’re producing formal accounts because that’s what their procedures dictate, and they won’t release funds until the executors sign off the accounts. Is that correct?
If that’s the case, then it seems unlikely that the solicitors can sign off their own accounts. The purpose of the signing-off would be to ensure that the executors agree with what the solicitors have done.
The executors must act in the best interest of the beneficiaries, so if your sister is delaying for her own personal benefit then she may we’ll be in breach of her duties. It might be worth asking the solicitors to remind her of that.
Perhaps the solicitors are doing everything on behalf of the executors, and they’re producing formal accounts because that’s what their procedures dictate, and they won’t release funds until the executors sign off the accounts. Is that correct?
If that’s the case, then it seems unlikely that the solicitors can sign off their own accounts. The purpose of the signing-off would be to ensure that the executors agree with what the solicitors have done.
The executors must act in the best interest of the beneficiaries, so if your sister is delaying for her own personal benefit then she may we’ll be in breach of her duties. It might be worth asking the solicitors to remind her of that.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Despite there being a trust involved, it didn’t impose any significant delays - and certainly not for the distribution of funds. Probate took a l-o-o-o-n-g time, 99% of which was due to HMRC’s inefficiency.
Lurking Lawyer mentions "executors year" earlier in the thread and there certainly is a school of thought that it's almost unseemly to do anything for 6 months and then, once probate is granted, to wait another 6 months before dishing out in case anyone sees the probate filing and comes forward.It's certainly common to hear stories of solicitors dragging it out, but having said that, when my wife's Godftather died, his solicitor was executor and it all went through remarkably quickly and that included selling his house. He had a great niece who was massively pushy though (ie he died on Friday and she put his house on the market on Monday, and arranged a meeting with the solicitor for Wednesday!) so I don't know how much that helped things along.
For anyone else doing it, you can do probate online now - my Mum died a year ago and I was asked if I wanted to take part in the beta trial. So both the HMRC bit and then Probate itself are online. I did the whole thing over a couple of months, although my mums affairs were pretty straightforward.
Sheepshanks said:
Lurking Lawyer mentions "executors year" earlier in the thread and there certainly is a school of thought that it's almost unseemly to do anything for 6 months and then, once probate is granted, to wait another 6 months before dishing out in case anyone sees the probate filing and comes forward.
IIRC, the executors’ year allows the executors to take a year, but does not compel them to drag it out.The six month clock is indeed to allow for further beneficiaries to crawl out of the woodwork. In my case I knew with certainty that there wouldn’t be any, and in any case there were two properties to clear and sell - this would take at least six months so I was confident that the proceeds from those would give me plenty of funds in the unlikely event that I had to pay another beneficiary. I therefore started retrieving and distributing the contents of various investments as soon as I had probate.
In the OP’s case, more than 12 months have elapsed since the death, and I presume at least 6 months have elapsed since probate - so there should be no further delay.
It must be frustrating, especially if the solicitors are being less than helpful. It’s tricky to know how to proceed; getting legal on the sister will not be good for the OP’s relationship with her.
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