RE: Is Renault in trouble?
Friday 22nd April 2005
Renault MeganeAfter the Rover debacle, could the next in line be Renault?
Is Renault in trouble?
Cruise control causes crashes, allegedly
Renault Megane
In an affair dubbed 'pedalegate', news from France suggests that the company could be heading for big trouble in its home country. Some 30 car crashes over the last six months are alleged to have been caused by faulty cruise control.
The allegation is that cars become locked into a certain speed and the cruise control does not disengage, resulting in cars crashing at full speed into motorway toll booths and other fixed objects.
Renault has been checking its systems for months and has responded, saying, "There’s absolutely nothing wrong with our electronic systems. Crashes are the consequence of human mistakes such as pressing the clutch instead of the accelerator."
This has done little for the company's image in France, reports one automotive blog (see link below), and the media is following the story.
Blogger Christophe Labédan spoke to a Renault engineer through a personal contact. Naturally, he wanted to remain anonymous but did say that, “The latest we’ve found out is that the systems seems faulty. Electromagnetic interference occurs between the ABS and cruise control computers."
It's been further suggested that level 5 rather than level 3 is required to protect them from interference.
More at Christophe's site (in French)
Discussion
this reminds me of the Ford Explorer incidents a few years back - might have been overshadowed by the melting tyres incidents around the same time.
i imagine the control logic in all these cruise-control systems are similar - they must have some kind of failsafe system that defaults to 'zero throttle' rather than 'full throttle' - you would so think at least?
"Renault has been checking its systems for months and has responded, saying, "There’s absolutely nothing wrong with our electronic systems. Crashes are the consequence of human mistakes such as pressing the clutch instead of the accelerator.""
Sound advice from Renault to all their owners.
Remember, if you're careering towards a toll booth with your cruise control locked on, be sure to press the accelerator and not the clutch, or better yet, the brake pedal. WTF!
Sound advice from Renault to all their owners.
Remember, if you're careering towards a toll booth with your cruise control locked on, be sure to press the accelerator and not the clutch, or better yet, the brake pedal. WTF!
fido said:
this reminds me of the Ford Explorer incidents a few years back - might have been overshadowed by the melting tyres incidents around the same time.
i imagine the control logic in all these cruise-control systems are similar - they must have some kind of failsafe system that defaults to 'zero throttle' rather than 'full throttle' - you would so think at least?
Was the ford explorer full throttle problem not as a result of the ford OEM floor mats jamming the accelerator pedal to the floor?
The failsafe system for cruise control is called the brake. Renaults have exceptionally poerful brakes of late which would have not problem stopping an accelerating car from motorway speeds. At which point you can wedge it against a crash barrier or bridge support.
I've never tried, but I don't think it would be that easy for a car doing 140Km/h (more than common speed on a motor way) to break to a stop with full throttle.
BUT, unless it is a automatic (even in a automatic, you should be able to do it) you can always put it to neutral and let the engine burn out.
Of course that is assuming that you have the calm and time to do it.
Cheers,
VP
BUT, unless it is a automatic (even in a automatic, you should be able to do it) you can always put it to neutral and let the engine burn out.
Of course that is assuming that you have the calm and time to do it.
Cheers,
VP
If the cause is electro magnetic interference any failsafe may not operate as the cruise control wouldn't think it was doing anything wrong or it may think that the input spike telling the cc unit to remain constant or even accelerate was coming from the driver.
Nasty thing interference.....
Nasty thing interference.....
And this would be from the people who insisted that the crash of the first fly-by-wire Airbus was not caused by the on-board computer, despite the evidence from the pilot (who survived) that the plane would not let him apply power until too late?
Some people have too much faith in computers.
Some people have too much faith in computers.
agent006 said:
Was the ford explorer full throttle problem not as a result of the ford OEM floor mats jamming the accelerator pedal to the floor?
i remember following this story closely, and that was the reason they gave for a particular incident in the UK, but i doubt it was the reason for the vast number of cruise control problems - not just on the Explorer but also the Taurus and others. i remember one guy in the States got into his Taurus and it went out of control on his driveway after starting the engine!!
also seems a bit odd how the throttle pedal could slip under the mat. either way, both are pretty dangerous features on any car...
BTW i have faith in computers, especially triple/quadruply-redundant systems with plenty of backups - it's the programmers that scare me (and that's going by my own spreadsheets/visual basic!)
>> Edited by fido on Friday 22 April 13:56
Renault could be correct, it may be down to driver "error"; i.e. drivers unused to cruise control (now more common on lower models and therefore more available).
Some time ago, Audi (and one or two others I can't remember) had complaints made about "faulty" automatic transmissions.
A few drivers were running amok seemingly unable to stop their cars, smashing into anything and everything, often in mutli-storey carparks for some reason.
Despite stripping the remains of the cars, the manufacturers were unable to find any fault.
The conclusion was that the throttle was being rammed to the floor instead of the brake pedal.
In every case, the drivers was elderly and unused to automatic transmission...
Some time ago, Audi (and one or two others I can't remember) had complaints made about "faulty" automatic transmissions.
A few drivers were running amok seemingly unable to stop their cars, smashing into anything and everything, often in mutli-storey carparks for some reason.
Despite stripping the remains of the cars, the manufacturers were unable to find any fault.
The conclusion was that the throttle was being rammed to the floor instead of the brake pedal.
In every case, the drivers was elderly and unused to automatic transmission...
jesprit said:
"Renault has been checking its systems for months and has responded, saying, "There’s absolutely nothing wrong with our electronic systems. Crashes are the consequence of human mistakes such as pressing the clutch instead of the accelerator.""
Sound advice from Renault to all their owners.
Remember, if you're careering towards a toll booth with your cruise control locked on, be sure to press the accelerator and not the clutch, or better yet, the brake pedal. WTF!
Why would the cruise control not be disengaged when the clutch pedal was pressed? My 15 year old pickup is set up that way -- clutch or brake disengages cruise.
...dem crazy French...
mrmaggit said:
And this would be from the people who insisted that the crash of the first fly-by-wire Airbus was not caused by the on-board computer, despite the evidence from the pilot (who survived) that the plane would not let him apply power until too late?
Some people have too much faith in computers.
Nothing wrong with their FBW.
The PILOT had the control system LOCKED into a landing them tried to power up for an overshoot. The system allows for a % increase to reduce flare/bounce but not a go around (as your trying to stay on the ground).
However...
"Crashes are the consequence of human mistakes such as pressing the clutch instead of the accelerator"
Emm what about that PANIC factor?? when it's all feet to the pedals BUT the natural responce to modulate the brake (even slightly) means the clutch wins?? CRAP design.
And if it turns out to be an EMC problem then SHAME on the designers and more so on the corporation as the testing should have brought this to light.
Mojo.
mojocvh said:
Emm what about that PANIC factor?? when it's all feet to the pedals BUT the natural responce to modulate the brake (even slightly) means the clutch wins?? CRAP design.
Mojo.
Why should the clutch win anything? If either the brake OR the clutch is pressed, the cruise should disengage. Period. Any other design is a poor design. What possible reason could there be to keep the engine reved up at speed if the clutch is disengaged and the engine is no longer powering the drivetrain?
Is this a wind up or URBAN LEGEND ?
I remember a similar story from the 70's of cruise control sticking on a big Vauxhall on the A19 with the result that the car crashed into Sunderland (or somewhere). As schoolboys we couldn't understand why the guy didn't just switch the ignition off AND APPLY THE BRAKES !
The first incident that was widely reported over the media happened on a Vel Satis : these have an automatic gearbox and the stunningly unclever "ignition" card linked to the ignition/kill switch.
It is supposed the driver could not switch off the engine when pushing the button, nor could he pull the card off the dashboard or move the lever out of "D".
Not sure if he's been honest about what he could or couldn't do, or if the cruise control was eventually diagnosed faulty. An "independant" expert company was commisionned by Renault () to find out.
The problem is the public accepts to buy cars that are stuffed with electronic nonesense. I wonder how many fatal crashes will be needed to open everyone's eyes.
>> Edited by Thom on Saturday 23 April 14:29
It is supposed the driver could not switch off the engine when pushing the button, nor could he pull the card off the dashboard or move the lever out of "D".
Not sure if he's been honest about what he could or couldn't do, or if the cruise control was eventually diagnosed faulty. An "independant" expert company was commisionned by Renault (
) to find out. The problem is the public accepts to buy cars that are stuffed with electronic nonesense. I wonder how many fatal crashes will be needed to open everyone's eyes.
>> Edited by Thom on Saturday 23 April 14:29
Fri 22/4 going down the A1M, set the cruise cont to 70mph. I was in the outside lane a good distance from an HGV when an N reg black golf undertook me at speed. He didn't judge his speed right, pulled in front of me because of traffic on the inside lane and hit his breaks. I hit my brakes, the cc did not disengage, in a panic pulled the handbrake and spun into the crash barrier. The car is now at the bodyshop awaiting repair and testing.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y160/hohstar/P1010002.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y160/hohstar/P1010002.jpg
hodstar said:
Fri 22/4 going down the A1M, set the cruise cont to 70mph. I was in the outside lane a good distance from an HGV when an N reg black golf undertook me at speed. He didn't judge his speed right, pulled in front of me because of traffic on the inside lane and hit his breaks. I hit my brakes, the cc did not disengage, in a panic pulled the handbrake and spun into the crash barrier. The car is now at the bodyshop awaiting repair and testing.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y160/hohstar/P1010002.jpg
feck me
Never had a problem with my Ford Mondeo CC (so far...)
DrDeAtH said:
what would cruise control be doing on a manual transmission car anyway? seems a tad silly to me....
Not really, but I agree it does suit an auto better. I remember on my old 9000 cruising at 70, slowing to 30-ish for a roundabout or whatever, then pressing the CC 'resume' button. It never failed to amuse me as the car accelerated back up through the gears to 70 all by itself...
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