Intergenerational unfairness.
Discussion
I suspect, like it or not, this body of work will eventually inform many PHer’s retirement outcomes.
http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/press-re...
http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/press-re...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/05/t...
Heaven forbid they target corporates and other tax dodgers.
Heaven forbid they target corporates and other tax dodgers.
55palfers said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/05/t...
Heaven forbid they target corporates and other tax dodgers.
Which businesses are avoiding CGT on unearned wealth where the baby boomers are paying it?Heaven forbid they target corporates and other tax dodgers.
In 2016, research was conducted.
“Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £826,030 in direct and indirect taxes. This figure represents a 2.7 per cent increase on the lifetime tax calculation for an average UK household last year.
Over a lifetime, an average household in the top 20 per cent by income will pay £1,686,970 in direct and indirect taxes.Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £287,963 in income tax. This represents a 4.3 per cent increase on the lifetime tax calculation for this group last year.
Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £169,371 of VAT.
Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £107,045 of Employee’s National Insurance Contributions.
Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £65,068 of Council Tax.”
http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/average_household...
“Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £826,030 in direct and indirect taxes. This figure represents a 2.7 per cent increase on the lifetime tax calculation for an average UK household last year.
Over a lifetime, an average household in the top 20 per cent by income will pay £1,686,970 in direct and indirect taxes.Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £287,963 in income tax. This represents a 4.3 per cent increase on the lifetime tax calculation for this group last year.
Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £169,371 of VAT.
Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £107,045 of Employee’s National Insurance Contributions.
Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £65,068 of Council Tax.”
http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/average_household...
The millenial generation have already accepted that we'll be paying for our elders, and in many cases already are. There are plenty retiring now on generous final salary schemes while the company puts aside money to pay for it, and my pension which is invested in shares doesnt benefit from the companies profit being put aside to cover the existing pensions. At the same time taxes are rising to cover social care costs of older generations NHS and home costs.
Not helped at all by the latest government buying pensioners votes with free giveaways and the stupid 'triple-lock' system when those of us under 30 have had stagnant or decreasing earnings for the last 10 years.
Bitter? Yes, a bit. I have very little hope of being in the same position as my Dad at his age, with a property which has benefited massively from rampant house prices and a final salary scheme paying an incredible amount of money for potentially the next 30 years.
Not helped at all by the latest government buying pensioners votes with free giveaways and the stupid 'triple-lock' system when those of us under 30 have had stagnant or decreasing earnings for the last 10 years.
Bitter? Yes, a bit. I have very little hope of being in the same position as my Dad at his age, with a property which has benefited massively from rampant house prices and a final salary scheme paying an incredible amount of money for potentially the next 30 years.
Condi said:
The millenial generation have already accepted that we'll be paying for our elders, and in many cases already are.
How??
Yours is the "I want it now" generation. Debt up to the ears so that you can have shiny new toys. while not bothering to save.
Condi said:
There are plenty retiring now on generous final salary schemes while the company puts aside money to pay for it, and my pension which is invested in shares doesnt benefit from the companies profit being put aside to cover the existing pensions.
What you're talking about there is the excesses of the public sector. Most private sector final salary pensions in payment are very small.
Condi said:
At the same time taxes are rising to cover social care costs of older generations NHS and home costs.
Who do you think paid for those costs for the previous generation? The reason the state has no money for this generation is that it spent it on the last generation! And now the next generation is complaining....
Condi said:
Not helped at all by the latest government buying pensioners votes with free giveaways and the stupid 'triple-lock' system
True.
Although of course no one would ever bribe kids with a promise of "maintenance grants" and "no tuition fees".
Condi said:
those of us under 30 have had stagnant or decreasing earnings for the last 10 years.
In which case you're paying very little in the way of income tax whilst "wealthier older people" are funding the treasury through higher rate income tax and thumping 20% VAT on everything they spend. Bear in mind a 40% taxpayer pays that 20% VAT out of taxed income, resulting in an effective tax rate of more than 50%
Condi said:
my Dad at his age, with a property which has benefited massively from rampant house prices and a final salary scheme paying an incredible amount of money for potentially the next 30 years.
Who's going to get the fat wad of cash from the house in due course? If you tax it off him you'll just be shooting yourself in the foot! And anyway, what difference does it make to him whether his home is worth £250 or £250,000? He can't spend it and live in it.
The millenial generation have already accepted that we'll be paying for our elders, and in many cases already are.
How??
Yours is the "I want it now" generation. Debt up to the ears so that you can have shiny new toys. while not bothering to save.
Condi said:
There are plenty retiring now on generous final salary schemes while the company puts aside money to pay for it, and my pension which is invested in shares doesnt benefit from the companies profit being put aside to cover the existing pensions.
What you're talking about there is the excesses of the public sector. Most private sector final salary pensions in payment are very small.
Condi said:
At the same time taxes are rising to cover social care costs of older generations NHS and home costs.
Who do you think paid for those costs for the previous generation? The reason the state has no money for this generation is that it spent it on the last generation! And now the next generation is complaining....
Condi said:
Not helped at all by the latest government buying pensioners votes with free giveaways and the stupid 'triple-lock' system
True.
Although of course no one would ever bribe kids with a promise of "maintenance grants" and "no tuition fees".
Condi said:
those of us under 30 have had stagnant or decreasing earnings for the last 10 years.
In which case you're paying very little in the way of income tax whilst "wealthier older people" are funding the treasury through higher rate income tax and thumping 20% VAT on everything they spend. Bear in mind a 40% taxpayer pays that 20% VAT out of taxed income, resulting in an effective tax rate of more than 50%
Condi said:
my Dad at his age, with a property which has benefited massively from rampant house prices and a final salary scheme paying an incredible amount of money for potentially the next 30 years.
Who's going to get the fat wad of cash from the house in due course? If you tax it off him you'll just be shooting yourself in the foot! And anyway, what difference does it make to him whether his home is worth £250 or £250,000? He can't spend it and live in it.
dazmanultra said:
Jockman said:
The solution? Means test all healthcare for those over 60.
"But ... but ... I've paid my NI all my life!"Despite the fact in many cases the cost of their care will most likely far exceed what they have ever paid in.
The group with all the wealth is also the group that is costing the most. It’s a very harsh truth and while there is an argument that they have paid taxes all their lives the horrible reality that needs to be faced up to was that it wasn’t enough as it has transpired that this group is not dying quick enough thus stifling trickledown and hitting the welfare state for huge expense.
We do need to recognise that retirees not dying en mass within a few years of stopping work of horrible but swift illnesses has manifestly warped our finances.
The core problem is that if you take an average 70 year old today they were a cost until about 16-18, worked until about 55/60 and will now be a cost until they are 80/85.
None of this is the individual's fault but a collective issue on many fronts but one which only they as a group can resolve or face being forced to resolve.
Personally, I believe that everything the NHS does should be billed to the recipient and that recipient to receive a 100% discount. It may sound silly but it’s the only way that everyone will begin to comprehend that in reality the taxes they pay in their lifetime don’t come close to the tax spend they receive in that lifetime.
We don’t want to go down the route of taxing or seizing and ideally not even means testing but a systematic education of the masses of their cost would go a long way to halting the ghastly partisan politics of a dominant electorate blaming their kids and immigrants for an issue that wasbof their making and to which they hold the solution.
sas62 said:
Interested as to how the average 70 year old holds the solution. Are you suggesting mass suicide?
That would be at the more Draconian end of the options list. 
70 is too high, the demographic is probably better defined from about 50 upwards roughly.
But the point is that the demographic that holds the vast bulk of the wealth is the same demographic that is costing the State more than it can afford. Blaming immigrants and kids and slashing spending on the weakest is a tactic that only has a brutal finale that no one will benefit from. A backlash that sees a Corbyn government and the kind of asset seizures and taxation that would deliver simply is not clever but it is what will come to pass (might not be Corbyn but it will be someone) if key issues are not redressed.
These are the two options. The State must reduce spending on the most costly demographic or the most costly demographic must start paying more.
One thing that is true is that it is utterly depressing how our society has gone through every scapegoat it can dream up to avoid facing the uncomfortable truth. We’ve seen the immigrants getting blamed and then their own children. Just how anyone under the age of 30 can be to blame for anything to do with our economic state just beggars belief. It’s ghastly watching an entire group desperately resort to any miserable measure to try and not face the truth and accept the blame and the fact that they have reached so phenomenally low as to now be blaming their own children is probably the worst I have ever seen this country.
DonkeyApple said:
and the fact that they have reached so phenomenally low as to now be blaming their own children is probably the worst I have ever seen this country.
Maybe you move in different circles to me but I have not see any widespread blaming of the young for our economic situation by their parents generation. sas62 said:
DonkeyApple said:
and the fact that they have reached so phenomenally low as to now be blaming their own children is probably the worst I have ever seen this country.
Maybe you move in different circles to me but I have not see any widespread blaming of the young for our economic situation by their parents generation. 
rockin said:
Condi said:
The millenial generation have already accepted that we'll be paying for our elders, and in many cases already are.
How??
Yours is the "I want it now" generation. Debt up to the ears so that you can have shiny new toys. while not bothering to save.
Good post but the quoted bit is the crux of it.The millenial generation have already accepted that we'll be paying for our elders, and in many cases already are.
How??
Yours is the "I want it now" generation. Debt up to the ears so that you can have shiny new toys. while not bothering to save.
When I bought my first flat, it was not in my preferred area, I didn't have holidays and went out once or maybe twice a week initially as I struggled to pay the mortgage. Nor did I spend a stupid amount on lattes etc (and still don't).
Under 30s, guess what? If you don't piss your money up the wall and are prepared to compromise on where you live/ what you can afford you will be able to buy property in the same way (in fact, in exactly the same way) as previous generations did. It's not f
kign rocket science.85Carrera said:
Under 30s, guess what? If you don't piss your money up the wall and are prepared to compromise on where you live/ what you can afford you will be able to buy property in the same way (in fact, in exactly the same way) as previous generations did. It's not fkign rocket science.
What year did you buy your first flat? What was the average salary to average house ratio?kign rocket science.And how much did your flat appreciate in value when you sold it?
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/17/aver...
85Carrera said:
Good post but the quoted bit is the crux of it.
When I bought my first flat, it was not in my preferred area, I didn't have holidays and went out once or maybe twice a week initially as I struggled to pay the mortgage. Nor did I spend a stupid amount on lattes etc (and still don't).
Under 30s, guess what? If you don't piss your money up the wall and are prepared to compromise on where you live/ what you can afford you will be able to buy property in the same way (in fact, in exactly the same way) as previous generations did. It's not fkign rocket science.
This is so word for word it should be a pull down template. When I bought my first flat, it was not in my preferred area, I didn't have holidays and went out once or maybe twice a week initially as I struggled to pay the mortgage. Nor did I spend a stupid amount on lattes etc (and still don't).
Under 30s, guess what? If you don't piss your money up the wall and are prepared to compromise on where you live/ what you can afford you will be able to buy property in the same way (in fact, in exactly the same way) as previous generations did. It's not f
kign rocket science.This latte, iphone and avocado trope is rather tiresome.
Anyone who doesn't think young folk are royally screwed overall compared to previous generations is a member of previous generations.
However what boomers received in terms of free education, generous pensions and the right time and place for property is a once in a millennia anomaly. It will never be repeated.
It can never be the norm going forward. It's simply not sustainable. Younglings are discovering that for themselves right now. And their children will have even less fun.
rockin said:
Who's going to get the fat wad of cash from the house in due course? If you tax it off him you'll just be shooting yourself in the foot! And anyway, what difference does it make to him whether his home is worth £250 or £250,000? He can't spend it and live in it.
I'm pretty sure that's what equity release is...rockin said:
Yours is the "I want it now" generation. Debt up to the ears so that you can have shiny new toys. while not bothering to save.
Credit is cheap and savings rates are crap. The entire economy is wired this way from low interest rates, the entire economy is breathing on debt currency. Debt is our culture. If you open a £500 modest credit card or store card, this can literally become a £3500 limit overnight, for no good reason. Creditors are piling debt on susceptible youngsters. The squeeze-in is only just starting.Financial education is non-existent in our national curriculum. The only way for under-25s to learn anything about finance is to live it, and these days, that probably means 4k of credit card debt before the wake-up call. Most parents are in an even worse position to try offering their children advice.
rockin said:
Although of course no one would ever bribe kids with a promise of "maintenance grants" and "no tuition fees".
Except, today's students are the most indebted in history.rockin said:
In which case you're paying very little in the way of income tax whilst "wealthier older people" are funding the treasury through higher rate income tax and thumping 20% VAT on everything they spend. Bear in mind a 40% taxpayer pays that 20% VAT out of taxed income, resulting in an effective tax rate of more than 50%
Let's stop attacking anyone who pays tax and contributes. The problem is tax avoidance, plain and simple.Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff