Resurfacing Longevity
Discussion
The main road going through my village was resurfaced some 7 years ago. The contractor ground off what looked like 4 inches of the original surface, so the ironwork was all exposed. It looked like a quality job, with many dropped kerbs rebuilt, primer applied in all the right places, drain covers re-levelled etc. Took a couple of weeks to do the 2 mile section of a major A road, all in nice new marble smooth tarmac. Last year saw some potholes forming, & this year, following a couple of inches of snow, the road appears to be breaking up in front of my eyes, as if laid 50-odd years ago...
How long are roads realistically supposed to last? Could the wrong specification have been used??
How long are roads realistically supposed to last? Could the wrong specification have been used??
What volume of traffic passing over it?
What size of vehicles passing over it?
Both will cause small changes to the surface especially in those areas that see the greatest wheel contact.
Hot weather & softening of tarmac by the sun (I know, it's Britain) will see greater movement as the vehicles pass over it.
Water will penetrate it & when it freezes expands & damages the surface. Vehicles driving over it will damage those bits more allowing more water penetration & puddles which will cause more damage when they freeze & so on until it looks like a lunar landscape.
Best way to preserve the new surface would be to resurface it & then not reopen it.
What size of vehicles passing over it?
Both will cause small changes to the surface especially in those areas that see the greatest wheel contact.
Hot weather & softening of tarmac by the sun (I know, it's Britain) will see greater movement as the vehicles pass over it.
Water will penetrate it & when it freezes expands & damages the surface. Vehicles driving over it will damage those bits more allowing more water penetration & puddles which will cause more damage when they freeze & so on until it looks like a lunar landscape.
Best way to preserve the new surface would be to resurface it & then not reopen it.
Edited by paintman on Saturday 17th March 09:34
Different councils I've worked with have different lifespan of roads depending on the usage of between 10-25 years.
So many factors as paintman mentioned above could cause this.
100mm plane could result in the underlying material having issues causing subsidence etc
Different surface courses get tested in locations too, thin surfacing was popular for a while but then found out to not have the design life required.
Different surface types can be more applicable depending upon the situation, HRA, SMA etc.
The main problem gets made worse when just a bit of asphalt gets dropped into the pothole, that's not doing anything to seal the existing damage and base course damage that has occurred. Even when they just saw cut around the area and replace, a larger area should always be done, and excavate some base course if possible too as that would have occurred water damage. But, money rules...
So many factors as paintman mentioned above could cause this.
100mm plane could result in the underlying material having issues causing subsidence etc
Different surface courses get tested in locations too, thin surfacing was popular for a while but then found out to not have the design life required.
Different surface types can be more applicable depending upon the situation, HRA, SMA etc.
The main problem gets made worse when just a bit of asphalt gets dropped into the pothole, that's not doing anything to seal the existing damage and base course damage that has occurred. Even when they just saw cut around the area and replace, a larger area should always be done, and excavate some base course if possible too as that would have occurred water damage. But, money rules...
joshleb said:
Different councils I've worked with have different lifespan of roads depending on the usage of between 10-25 years.
So many factors as paintman mentioned above could cause this.
100mm plane could result in the underlying material having issues causing subsidence etc
Different surface courses get tested in locations too, thin surfacing was popular for a while but then found out to not have the design life required.
Different surface types can be more applicable depending upon the situation, HRA, SMA etc.
The main problem gets made worse when just a bit of asphalt gets dropped into the pothole, that's not doing anything to seal the existing damage and base course damage that has occurred. Even when they just saw cut around the area and replace, a larger area should always be done, and excavate some base course if possible too as that would have occurred water damage. But, money rules...
Short-termism and failure to manage contractors is the biggest issue.So many factors as paintman mentioned above could cause this.
100mm plane could result in the underlying material having issues causing subsidence etc
Different surface courses get tested in locations too, thin surfacing was popular for a while but then found out to not have the design life required.
Different surface types can be more applicable depending upon the situation, HRA, SMA etc.
The main problem gets made worse when just a bit of asphalt gets dropped into the pothole, that's not doing anything to seal the existing damage and base course damage that has occurred. Even when they just saw cut around the area and replace, a larger area should always be done, and excavate some base course if possible too as that would have occurred water damage. But, money rules...
V8 Fettler said:
joshleb said:
But, money rules...
Short-termism and failure to manage contractors is the biggest issue.Money - Council's with highways functions will mostly have children's and adult social care: both of which are under increasing funding pressure, and requiring other council areas to shed budget, or not get growth.
Short termism: councils must set a balanced revenue budget each year, and can't borrow to fund day to day activity, even if it would save money. They can capitalise (ie borrow) if the volume of repairs constitutes a large enough section to renew road, but councils might not have the borrowing headroom. Repairing pot holes is not capital.
Solutions have been trying to use money more effectively by outsourcing to large private sector companies to get economies of scale. It can have mixed results, especially when the remaining staff are cut back too far to properly contract manage (see money bit above)
Ian
Recent popularity of SMA materials which have a shorter life expectancy but better surface characteristics and are quicker/easier/cheaper to lay. The reversion to hot rolled asphalt with pre coated chippings is slow as most local authorities don't have a appetite to inconvenience the travelling public by fully closing the roads while they are relaid (and HRA w/PCC needs wider machines)
A 4 inch or 100mm inlay will be 2 layers of tarmac, binder course and surface course. The binder course should last 20 to 40 years and the surface course between 12 and 25 years depending on traffic loading and material type. All the above are dependent on the new material having been laid on a decent substrate or foundation.
If it has only lasted 7 years I’d suggest that either material or workmanship were defective if the underlying layers are ok. I’d definitely be complaining to the council and mentioning latent defects clauses in the contract.
SMA materials can be made to last as long as HRA and chips but it needs a bit of tweaking of standard specifications and will increase cost slightly but will still be cheaper than HRA.
I’m not sure where the idea that salt damages tarmac comes from, it’s the frost that causes the damage.
If it has only lasted 7 years I’d suggest that either material or workmanship were defective if the underlying layers are ok. I’d definitely be complaining to the council and mentioning latent defects clauses in the contract.
SMA materials can be made to last as long as HRA and chips but it needs a bit of tweaking of standard specifications and will increase cost slightly but will still be cheaper than HRA.
I’m not sure where the idea that salt damages tarmac comes from, it’s the frost that causes the damage.
Longevity?
Entirely depends on how much contract corruption there is in your area.
It's works something like this:
Councillor plays golf with boss of a prospective contractor, finds a fat brown envelope slipped into his golf bag, contract goes to that company, that company charges the earth for the work they do, they cuts cost on materials to ensure they're never short of work, public picks up the bill and Mr Councillor takes a cut each month paid into an offshore account..... Everyone's a winner, except us mugs.
Entirely depends on how much contract corruption there is in your area.
It's works something like this:
Councillor plays golf with boss of a prospective contractor, finds a fat brown envelope slipped into his golf bag, contract goes to that company, that company charges the earth for the work they do, they cuts cost on materials to ensure they're never short of work, public picks up the bill and Mr Councillor takes a cut each month paid into an offshore account..... Everyone's a winner, except us mugs.
lyonspride said:
Longevity?
Entirely depends on how much contract corruption there is in your area.
It's works something like this:
Councillor plays golf with boss of a prospective contractor, finds a fat brown envelope slipped into his golf bag, contract goes to that company, that company charges the earth for the work they do, they cuts cost on materials to ensure they're never short of work, public picks up the bill and Mr Councillor takes a cut each month paid into an offshore account..... Everyone's a winner, except us mugs.
Ironically, the less and less of the old fashioned corruption there is, the worse the roads are...... allegedly!Entirely depends on how much contract corruption there is in your area.
It's works something like this:
Councillor plays golf with boss of a prospective contractor, finds a fat brown envelope slipped into his golf bag, contract goes to that company, that company charges the earth for the work they do, they cuts cost on materials to ensure they're never short of work, public picks up the bill and Mr Councillor takes a cut each month paid into an offshore account..... Everyone's a winner, except us mugs.
The Surveyor said:
lyonspride said:
Longevity?
Entirely depends on how much contract corruption there is in your area.
It's works something like this:
Councillor plays golf with boss of a prospective contractor, finds a fat brown envelope slipped into his golf bag, contract goes to that company, that company charges the earth for the work they do, they cuts cost on materials to ensure they're never short of work, public picks up the bill and Mr Councillor takes a cut each month paid into an offshore account..... Everyone's a winner, except us mugs.
Ironically, the less and less of the old fashioned corruption there is, the worse the roads are...... allegedly!Entirely depends on how much contract corruption there is in your area.
It's works something like this:
Councillor plays golf with boss of a prospective contractor, finds a fat brown envelope slipped into his golf bag, contract goes to that company, that company charges the earth for the work they do, they cuts cost on materials to ensure they're never short of work, public picks up the bill and Mr Councillor takes a cut each month paid into an offshore account..... Everyone's a winner, except us mugs.
In some ways that's why I like countries where there is obvious corruption, most of eastern Europe for example and of course there's the well known issues in Spain where ex-pats who didn't pay the bribes have been losing their homes.
lyonspride said:
The Surveyor said:
lyonspride said:
Longevity?
Entirely depends on how much contract corruption there is in your area.
It's works something like this:
Councillor plays golf with boss of a prospective contractor, finds a fat brown envelope slipped into his golf bag, contract goes to that company, that company charges the earth for the work they do, they cuts cost on materials to ensure they're never short of work, public picks up the bill and Mr Councillor takes a cut each month paid into an offshore account..... Everyone's a winner, except us mugs.
Ironically, the less and less of the old fashioned corruption there is, the worse the roads are...... allegedly!Entirely depends on how much contract corruption there is in your area.
It's works something like this:
Councillor plays golf with boss of a prospective contractor, finds a fat brown envelope slipped into his golf bag, contract goes to that company, that company charges the earth for the work they do, they cuts cost on materials to ensure they're never short of work, public picks up the bill and Mr Councillor takes a cut each month paid into an offshore account..... Everyone's a winner, except us mugs.
In some ways that's why I like countries where there is obvious corruption, most of eastern Europe for example and of course there's the well known issues in Spain where ex-pats who didn't pay the bribes have been losing their homes.
Council goes to tender, but (probably) only allowed to go out to a very small selection of companies pre-vetted.
Go for cheapest option, which invariably will be the worst, with the most clauses in what work is being done, and least amount of recourse for when it goes wrong.
You privitised, you suck it up!
Biker 1 said:
The main road going through my village was resurfaced some 7 years ago. The contractor ground off what looked like 4 inches of the original surface, so the ironwork was all exposed. It looked like a quality job, with many dropped kerbs rebuilt, primer applied in all the right places, drain covers re-levelled etc. Took a couple of weeks to do the 2 mile section of a major A road, all in nice new marble smooth tarmac. Last year saw some potholes forming, & this year, following a couple of inches of snow, the road appears to be breaking up in front of my eyes, as if laid 50-odd years ago...
How long are roads realistically supposed to last? Could the wrong specification have been used??
In what way is it breaking up? Small potholes gradually getting bigger and deeper? Longitudinal cracks appearing and growing? Block cracking, like into squares? General uneven humps or bumps appearing?How long are roads realistically supposed to last? Could the wrong specification have been used??
The nature of the failure will give clues to the underlying cause.
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