Motorbike Insurance- "Pillion Cover"
Discussion
Been re-insuring some bike recently and been asked via the online comparisons insurers own websites, if I want "pillion cover".
I have some single seaters and some with pillions perches, but one specific bike bought to take a pillion, mainly my daughter who is 11 and mad on bikes.
So what does pillion cover mean? If I am fully comp, and I have a tumble with a pillion on, what is the pillion covered for? Kit, injury?
If they were in my car, and I stuck it though a hedge, presume a passenger can claim off my insurance for injuries.
is this what the "pillion use" part of a fully comp bike policy is for. Or does it just allow me, the rider, to ride with a passenger, and be insured legally per road traffic requirements? Ie, bike heavier, more cumbesome with passenger on board?
I have always assumed it was the former, but as a belt and braces, always taken the additional bolt on for "personal accident" that stated it covers pillions too. Also has some "life cover" for the pillion in that worst case scenario.
But today, i and I think thousands of others have had a letter from a South Coast seaside Insurer stating that the info we were given on the web is wrong, and we don't have personal cover for passengers, (despite the terms stating we did and showing fiscal sums insured!). Letter also gives us 7 days to cancel, but they sent them out last Monday so the 19th is the deadline!
I've called them to massive confusion their end as none of their call centre know about these letters, nor are they logged on the system as having been sent out, and they are unsure even now, as to whether I even have "pillion use" cover anymore. And even if I do, they cannot tell me what that actually covers.
f
king shambles they are, in a proper mess the last few months, website sporadically working, days and days and you cannot get them on the phone and now this.
The bike this is on is a specific pillion bike I have bought specifically to take a passenger, panniers, topbox, seat pad, the lot. So no pillion cover is of no use to me at all.
Anyone else got one of these letters today? BTW, after an hour of them researching the issue (as call centre had no idea about it), this affects policies sold sincee Feb 17 to March 18, it appears.
I have some single seaters and some with pillions perches, but one specific bike bought to take a pillion, mainly my daughter who is 11 and mad on bikes.
So what does pillion cover mean? If I am fully comp, and I have a tumble with a pillion on, what is the pillion covered for? Kit, injury?
If they were in my car, and I stuck it though a hedge, presume a passenger can claim off my insurance for injuries.
is this what the "pillion use" part of a fully comp bike policy is for. Or does it just allow me, the rider, to ride with a passenger, and be insured legally per road traffic requirements? Ie, bike heavier, more cumbesome with passenger on board?
I have always assumed it was the former, but as a belt and braces, always taken the additional bolt on for "personal accident" that stated it covers pillions too. Also has some "life cover" for the pillion in that worst case scenario.
But today, i and I think thousands of others have had a letter from a South Coast seaside Insurer stating that the info we were given on the web is wrong, and we don't have personal cover for passengers, (despite the terms stating we did and showing fiscal sums insured!). Letter also gives us 7 days to cancel, but they sent them out last Monday so the 19th is the deadline!
I've called them to massive confusion their end as none of their call centre know about these letters, nor are they logged on the system as having been sent out, and they are unsure even now, as to whether I even have "pillion use" cover anymore. And even if I do, they cannot tell me what that actually covers.
f
king shambles they are, in a proper mess the last few months, website sporadically working, days and days and you cannot get them on the phone and now this. The bike this is on is a specific pillion bike I have bought specifically to take a passenger, panniers, topbox, seat pad, the lot. So no pillion cover is of no use to me at all.
Anyone else got one of these letters today? BTW, after an hour of them researching the issue (as call centre had no idea about it), this affects policies sold sincee Feb 17 to March 18, it appears.
Whenever this question is asked there is normally a number of different answers, as you have found no-one appears to have a solid answer.
If you are carrying a passenger you need to get the insurance. If you don't have the insurance and carry a passenger you would be breaching your insurance contract terms. *I don't think this is classed as a motoring offence (so no fine or points) but your ins. co. will probably claw the money back from you should something happen*
*based on opinions, I could be wrong.
If you are carrying a passenger you need to get the insurance. If you don't have the insurance and carry a passenger you would be breaching your insurance contract terms. *I don't think this is classed as a motoring offence (so no fine or points) but your ins. co. will probably claw the money back from you should something happen*
*based on opinions, I could be wrong.
Donbot said:
Whenever this question is asked there is normally a number of different answers, as you have found no-one appears to have a solid answer.
If you are carrying a passenger you need to get the insurance. If you don't have the insurance and carry a passenger you would be breaching your insurance contract terms. *I don't think this is classed as a motoring offence (so no fine or points) but your ins. co. will probably claw the money back from you should something happen*
*based on opinions, I could be wrong.
^ThisIf you are carrying a passenger you need to get the insurance. If you don't have the insurance and carry a passenger you would be breaching your insurance contract terms. *I don't think this is classed as a motoring offence (so no fine or points) but your ins. co. will probably claw the money back from you should something happen*
*based on opinions, I could be wrong.
I think that passengers are considered third parties. They are usually covered by third party.
That implies there is no difference to the cover to the pillion either way BUT if you said no pillion, you are in breach of contract, so the insurance company can look to recover all the costs from you.
I could be completely wrong of course.
That implies there is no difference to the cover to the pillion either way BUT if you said no pillion, you are in breach of contract, so the insurance company can look to recover all the costs from you.
I could be completely wrong of course.
vonhosen said:
Donbot said:
Whenever this question is asked there is normally a number of different answers, as you have found no-one appears to have a solid answer.
If you are carrying a passenger you need to get the insurance. If you don't have the insurance and carry a passenger you would be breaching your insurance contract terms. *I don't think this is classed as a motoring offence (so no fine or points) but your ins. co. will probably claw the money back from you should something happen*
*based on opinions, I could be wrong.
^ThisIf you are carrying a passenger you need to get the insurance. If you don't have the insurance and carry a passenger you would be breaching your insurance contract terms. *I don't think this is classed as a motoring offence (so no fine or points) but your ins. co. will probably claw the money back from you should something happen*
*based on opinions, I could be wrong.
It's more likely that by asking the question, they can decide to give a discount to those who say they never carry pillion passengers, knowing that most of those people who say they don't never would, and hence represent a lower risk, because they aren't taking advantage of all the cover that is on offer.
I don't think it's ever been tested in court.
Bit of background for you
A passenger in / on a vehicle will always be able to claim off you if you crash, as you were the one driving. They would claim off the driver of the other vehicle if you weren’t at fault for the crash.
Passenger cover was always included on all vehicles historically. However, a couple of decades back, motorbike brokers realised that most bikes were ridden solo amd somwent to the underwriters to see if they could remove the cover for passengers, as it wasn’t needed for many. This gradually morphed from being a situation where you opted out of pillion cover into a situation where you opted in.
In your case you need pillion cover. You technically only need it on the one bike you carry a pillion on, but if you have a mulitibike policy then the cover can’t be split to have it one bike and not on others, so you’ll get it on all bikes.
If you don’t have this cover amd are stopped with a pillion, then you are effectively uninsured. It’s the same as the driver who deletes commuting cover and then is stopped whilst commuting to work, or the driver who is stopped whilst on business who hasn’t got business cover.
The police will be able to seize your bike and charge you if they want to.
I have no idea what Hastings are playing at with this letter, but would be good to see it so that I can give you some options if you want them. Take a photo with your personal details redacted and post it on here.
A passenger in / on a vehicle will always be able to claim off you if you crash, as you were the one driving. They would claim off the driver of the other vehicle if you weren’t at fault for the crash.
Passenger cover was always included on all vehicles historically. However, a couple of decades back, motorbike brokers realised that most bikes were ridden solo amd somwent to the underwriters to see if they could remove the cover for passengers, as it wasn’t needed for many. This gradually morphed from being a situation where you opted out of pillion cover into a situation where you opted in.
In your case you need pillion cover. You technically only need it on the one bike you carry a pillion on, but if you have a mulitibike policy then the cover can’t be split to have it one bike and not on others, so you’ll get it on all bikes.
If you don’t have this cover amd are stopped with a pillion, then you are effectively uninsured. It’s the same as the driver who deletes commuting cover and then is stopped whilst commuting to work, or the driver who is stopped whilst on business who hasn’t got business cover.
The police will be able to seize your bike and charge you if they want to.
I have no idea what Hastings are playing at with this letter, but would be good to see it so that I can give you some options if you want them. Take a photo with your personal details redacted and post it on here.
So their letter says that cover is not available for under 16s now (previous had 7500 accident / injury cover) as "they are too young to ride a motorcycle" !
I pointed out, that's why they're on the fking back!!
Currently I don't know if I have "pillion cover" or not. Or whether letter just relates to "pillion accident cover".
Common sense and fairplay would suggest that if they have moved the goalposts now , some 2.5 months in, they should refund the policy in full or at least pro rata it on a linear basis. Although I still lose out for 2.5 months NCB. I need pillion cover on the bike, I only bought the thing to ride with a pillion!
I pointed out, that's why they're on the f
king back!!Currently I don't know if I have "pillion cover" or not. Or whether letter just relates to "pillion accident cover".
Common sense and fairplay would suggest that if they have moved the goalposts now , some 2.5 months in, they should refund the policy in full or at least pro rata it on a linear basis. Although I still lose out for 2.5 months NCB. I need pillion cover on the bike, I only bought the thing to ride with a pillion!
poo at Paul's said:
...Letter also gives us 7 days to cancel, but they sent them out last Monday so the 19th is the deadline!
And presumably if you do cancel then they'll expect you to pay cancellation fees for their cock up.I'm sorry that I can't help with your specific issue but I've had to renew a few insurances recently and it's this kind of asshattery that's really getting me down: Things that you specifically asked to be covered that turn out not to be, petty paperwork quibbles and outright dishonesty.
And retrospective dicking around.
No other business is allowed to operate this way. It's totally unacceptable.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
It's actually unlikely. By law, a UK motor insurance policy must give unlimited cover for third party injury. They have no choice. Pillion passengers are third parties, no different to pedestrians or any other person you may injure. It's unlikely they could claw back costs for cover the law said they had to give you anyway.
It's more likely that by asking the question, they can decide to give a discount to those who say they never carry pillion passengers, knowing that most of those people who say they don't never would, and hence represent a lower risk, because they aren't taking advantage of all the cover that is on offer.
I don't think it's ever been tested in court.
I haven't found anything on this either. It's more likely that by asking the question, they can decide to give a discount to those who say they never carry pillion passengers, knowing that most of those people who say they don't never would, and hence represent a lower risk, because they aren't taking advantage of all the cover that is on offer.
I don't think it's ever been tested in court.
Though it is unlikely they would pursue someone for a million-pound injury claim, it does give them an option to chase you for costs. It could also have implications on getting insurance in the future.
Having said that, I've never bothered with pillion cover but have taken passengers occasionally.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
It's actually unlikely. By law, a UK motor insurance policy must give unlimited cover for third party injury. They have no choice. Pillion passengers are third parties, no different to pedestrians or any other person you may injure. It's unlikely they could claw back costs for cover the law said they had to give you anyway.
It's more likely that by asking the question, they can decide to give a discount to those who say they never carry pillion passengers, knowing that most of those people who say they don't never would, and hence represent a lower risk, because they aren't taking advantage of all the cover that is on offer.
I don't think it's ever been tested in court.
I expect this is exactly it.It's more likely that by asking the question, they can decide to give a discount to those who say they never carry pillion passengers, knowing that most of those people who say they don't never would, and hence represent a lower risk, because they aren't taking advantage of all the cover that is on offer.
I don't think it's ever been tested in court.
I have one bike covered for pillion and another not.
The bike not covered has a seat cowl and no pillion pegs, I genuinely don't want or intend to ever take a passenger.
Quite how it could ever be policed with regard to a bike with seat and pegs is a mystery ( eg. if I insured my second bike for rider only, how would they ever know, and if a claim resulted they would be legally obliged to honour it regardless).
poo at Paul's said:
So their letter says that cover is not available for under 16s now (previous had 7500 accident / injury cover) as "they are too young to ride a motorcycle" !
I pointed out, that's why they're on the fking back!!
Currently I don't know if I have "pillion cover" or not. Or whether letter just relates to "pillion accident cover".
Common sense and fairplay would suggest that if they have moved the goalposts now , some 2.5 months in, they should refund the policy in full or at least pro rata it on a linear basis. Although I still lose out for 2.5 months NCB. I need pillion cover on the bike, I only bought the thing to ride with a pillion!
Right, it’s a bit clearer now and you’re possibly worrying about nothing. I still need to see the letter though to be absolutely clear. I pointed out, that's why they're on the f
king back!!Currently I don't know if I have "pillion cover" or not. Or whether letter just relates to "pillion accident cover".
Common sense and fairplay would suggest that if they have moved the goalposts now , some 2.5 months in, they should refund the policy in full or at least pro rata it on a linear basis. Although I still lose out for 2.5 months NCB. I need pillion cover on the bike, I only bought the thing to ride with a pillion!
You appear to have bought an add on policy that covers injury / death / loss of limb and similar stuff. This is an extra policy and it’s not really part of your main legal requirement insurance. What this does is pay out a small amount to you or the pillion irrespective of who is at fault. The amounts payable will be defined, usually in amounts like £500, £2500, £5000 etc.
In your situation this is more or less irrelevant. If you have pillion cover, then your daughter is covered under your primary policy. What Hastings appear to be saying is the add on policy doesn’t cover her, but as she’d sue you under the min policy, which has no practical limit on payout (technically £20m), then she is going to be Ok.
There is no police issue with this.
Gavia said:
Right, it’s a bit clearer now and you’re possibly worrying about nothing. I still need to see the letter though to be absolutely clear.
You appear to have bought an add on policy that covers injury / death / loss of limb and similar stuff. This is an extra policy and it’s not really part of your main legal requirement insurance. What this does is pay out a small amount to you or the pillion irrespective of who is at fault. The amounts payable will be defined, usually in amounts like £500, £2500, £5000 etc.
In your situation this is more or less irrelevant. If you have pillion cover, then your daughter is covered under your primary policy. What Hastings appear to be saying is the add on policy doesn’t cover her, but as she’d sue you under the min policy, which has no practical limit on payout (technically £20m), then she is going to be Ok.
There is no police issue with this.
You're probably right.You appear to have bought an add on policy that covers injury / death / loss of limb and similar stuff. This is an extra policy and it’s not really part of your main legal requirement insurance. What this does is pay out a small amount to you or the pillion irrespective of who is at fault. The amounts payable will be defined, usually in amounts like £500, £2500, £5000 etc.
In your situation this is more or less irrelevant. If you have pillion cover, then your daughter is covered under your primary policy. What Hastings appear to be saying is the add on policy doesn’t cover her, but as she’d sue you under the min policy, which has no practical limit on payout (technically £20m), then she is going to be Ok.
There is no police issue with this.
But either way, they've still taken money for cover that they're not going to provide.
They always tell us that insurance is a contract of “Utmost good faith” but that only ever appears to cut one way.
DJP said:
You're probably right.
But either way, they've still taken money for cover that they're not going to provide.
They always tell us that insurance is a contract of “Utmost good faith” but that only ever appears to cut one way.
That’s not what Utmost Good Faith means. But either way, they've still taken money for cover that they're not going to provide.
They always tell us that insurance is a contract of “Utmost good faith” but that only ever appears to cut one way.
In any case, I think you’re overplaying this. It’s an add on policy that probably cost £10 for the year. The main policy is unaffected and that is the policy that his daughter would claim on if there was an accident down to the OP’s riding.
They've taken pillion cover off completely! I need to now get a quote to have it added on as an option on the main insurance itself and it is not now in place on the personal accident cover now, egardless of age.
Just cant see how they are allowed to do this. Call centre says they've been inundated with calls today about this as letters arrived today. So badly handled.
I've also got kit cover, but no details as to whether that is affected yet.
Just cant see how they are allowed to do this. Call centre says they've been inundated with calls today about this as letters arrived today. So badly handled.
I've also got kit cover, but no details as to whether that is affected yet.
poo at Paul's said:
They've taken pillion cover off completely! I need to now get a quote to have it added on as an option on the main insurance itself and it is not now in place on the personal accident cover now, egardless of age.
Just cant see how they are allowed to do this. Call centre says they've been inundated with calls today about this as letters arrived today. So badly handled.
I've also got kit cover, but no details as to whether that is affected yet.
They can’t do that. Post up the letter as I’ve asked several times and I’ll advise you on your options. Just cant see how they are allowed to do this. Call centre says they've been inundated with calls today about this as letters arrived today. So badly handled.
I've also got kit cover, but no details as to whether that is affected yet.
Gavia said:
They can’t do that. Post up the letter as I’ve asked several times and I’ll advise you on your options.
I cant post pics no scanner nor hosting. I know they cant do that, but they HAVE done it! As the Personal cover is a bolt on policy, they've also cancelled that for pillion too. But that is apparently "all they were meant to do", although that in itself, (considering I paid for it all in full months ago), would also seem to be "not allowed"! Their remedy seems to be to cancel the whole lot and refund. Like that's ok! They don't consider that had they not offered this cover in the first place, i'd have gone elsewhere!
Closed now so will sort it tomorrow.
Shyster behaviour though. Had they written to say they were withdrawing this cover at renewal and IF I allowed the policy to be renewed it would not include this cover, well that's a ball ache but much more reasonable IMO. At least I then get the option to move my policy and NCD etc. Cancelling it mid term with f
k all notice limits options and anyone choosing to cancel the lot, means the policyholder loses however many months NCB. As someone else eluded to, both parties go into it all in good faith, but only one can s
t on the other party when it suits! Gavia said:
If you don’t have this cover amd are stopped with a pillion, then you are effectively uninsured. It’s the same as the driver who deletes commuting cover and then is stopped whilst commuting to work, or the driver who is stopped whilst on business who hasn’t got business cover.
The police will be able to seize your bike and charge you if they want to.
Not true. There is no legal requirement for an insurer to give commuting cover. They are able to sell you a policy excluding commuting cover so if the police pull you whilst commuting you are uninsured. Because your policy excludes it.The police will be able to seize your bike and charge you if they want to.
But there is a law that says they have to give pillion cover. Passenger liability is mandatory on any car/bike/commercial vehicle policy. They cannot remove it. They cannot sell you a policy without it. So you always have it, and you would not be uninsured. They can give you a discount for saying you won't use it, but they still have to give it to you.
I suspect that if you said you didn't carry pillions, got the discount, and then crashed with a pillion on board, the most they could do is recharge you for the discount they gave initially.
Gavia said:
You appear to have bought an add on policy that covers injury / death / loss of limb and similar stuff. This is an extra policy and it’s not really part of your main legal requirement insurance. What this does is pay out a small amount to you or the pillion irrespective of who is at fault. The amounts payable will be defined, usually in amounts like £500, £2500, £5000 etc.
In your situation this is more or less irrelevant. If you have pillion cover, then your daughter is covered under your primary policy. What Hastings appear to be saying is the add on policy doesn’t cover her, but as she’d sue you under the min policy, which has no practical limit on payout (technically £20m), then she is going to be Ok.
You are overlooking the circumstance where the pillion is badly injured in a crash, but the rider wasn't negligent and there's no tp to claim against. Patch of oil on the road, mechanical failure on the bike, a blow out on the motorway etc. Then the personal accident policy would be their only source of compensation. In your situation this is more or less irrelevant. If you have pillion cover, then your daughter is covered under your primary policy. What Hastings appear to be saying is the add on policy doesn’t cover her, but as she’d sue you under the min policy, which has no practical limit on payout (technically £20m), then she is going to be Ok.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Not true. There is no legal requirement for an insurer to give commuting cover. They are able to sell you a policy excluding commuting cover so if the police pull you whilst commuting you are uninsured. Because your policy excludes it.
But there is a law that says they have to give pillion cover. Passenger liability is mandatory on any car/bike/commercial vehicle policy. They cannot remove it. They cannot sell you a policy without it. So you always have it, and you would not be uninsured. They can give you a discount for saying you won't use it, but they still have to give it to you.
I suspect that if you said you didn't carry pillions, got the discount, and then crashed with a pillion on board, the most they could do is recharge you for the discount they gave initially.
Nope. They can exclude it, however the pillion would be covered under RTA, so the insurer would have to pay out, but reserve the right to recover. An insurer can sell you a policy that is void if you are over the limit, but they too will still be liable under the RTA, once again having the right to recover if they follow the right procedures. But there is a law that says they have to give pillion cover. Passenger liability is mandatory on any car/bike/commercial vehicle policy. They cannot remove it. They cannot sell you a policy without it. So you always have it, and you would not be uninsured. They can give you a discount for saying you won't use it, but they still have to give it to you.
I suspect that if you said you didn't carry pillions, got the discount, and then crashed with a pillion on board, the most they could do is recharge you for the discount they gave initially.
There is a big difference. The rider would still have been uninsured and be prosecuted for it. Indemnity is not the same as insurance.
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